The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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This may not be the best day for this. I will likely be in and out and have limited time today. We'll see. But I wanted to let you know I read and appreciate the post.
Let me ask you one question, if I may; Do you believe that men choose to believe in or to reject God and/or Jesus Christ?
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Although I still believe our redemption has a BEGINNING point, a subsequent period of GROWTH as well as a future time of CONSUMMATION I now think 2 Corinthians 1:10 is not the place to anchor that belief since it could just as easily be referring to the life of Paul. However, the scriptures do support the idea that the life of God in us has a BEGINNING when it is implanted in us, followed by a period of GROWTH when we gradually become more like Him and finally by a consummation when we "see him as He is."
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ESV 1st Cor. 11:19
for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
I have no problem with factions, they must exist.
It is the constant name calling that is the problem.
So many here have called the anti-OSAS group as work-salvationist. This is troubling and out of line.
On the other hand, I do not see the OSAS groups being accused of pushing a license to sin.
for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
I have no problem with factions, they must exist.
It is the constant name calling that is the problem.
So many here have called the anti-OSAS group as work-salvationist. This is troubling and out of line.
On the other hand, I do not see the OSAS groups being accused of pushing a license to sin.
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OSAS,for any who actually read the Bible here rather than copy and paste verses they think give that impression, KNOW that it is a matter of the covenant Jesus died to bring to this world.
Those who don't know the Bible as intended by Holy Spirit wrongly insist,repeatedly,that eternal irrevocable salvation and life in Christ,OSAS, means we can make a habit of sinning.
That's false .
And Jesus tells us why that is.
So the ridiculous anti-gospel slur that insists we have a license to sin being we are saved once and eternally is, in my view, a confession of the unbelievers . Who never actually read the word so to know the words they espouse against eternal irrevocable salvation are known to be false.
Those who don't know the Bible as intended by Holy Spirit wrongly insist,repeatedly,that eternal irrevocable salvation and life in Christ,OSAS, means we can make a habit of sinning.
That's false .
And Jesus tells us why that is.
So the ridiculous anti-gospel slur that insists we have a license to sin being we are saved once and eternally is, in my view, a confession of the unbelievers . Who never actually read the word so to know the words they espouse against eternal irrevocable salvation are known to be false.
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Post #203 @Believer08
OSAS has no dog in the fight. It’s a deceiving doctrine on so many levels…it deceives people into thinking that obedience earns salvation…deceives people to be illogical…deceives people into living in sin since they are always saved and told that nothing they can do can cause them to be lost…yet when taking to its logical conclusion…they will be told they were never saved…
OSAS has no dog in the fight. It’s a deceiving doctrine on so many levels…it deceives people into thinking that obedience earns salvation…deceives people to be illogical…deceives people into living in sin since they are always saved and told that nothing they can do can cause them to be lost…yet when taking to its logical conclusion…they will be told they were never saved…
#471
I understand how “comforting” OSAS can be…as it gives people the feel good mentality to be able to sin as much as they want…and takes any responsibility off of obedience due to always being saved. People such as yourself will not admit any of that, but it’s true. The more and more I engage with people who believe in OSAS, the more I realize how it’s filled with hypocritical people who is dishonest with what it really teaches…and dishonesty will get you nowhere. You also will be held accountable for that.
OSAS truly does lead to a life of sin. I’m not ever going to believe or have someone say it does not…and I’m not going to believe the lie that it means something different when it doesn’t. I have dealt with enough folks who believe in it to know otherwise.
Anything you say to try to teach that it doesn’t will be conceding the “always saved” part.
I understand how “comforting” OSAS can be…as it gives people the feel good mentality to be able to sin as much as they want…and takes any responsibility off of obedience due to always being saved. People such as yourself will not admit any of that, but it’s true. The more and more I engage with people who believe in OSAS, the more I realize how it’s filled with hypocritical people who is dishonest with what it really teaches…and dishonesty will get you nowhere. You also will be held accountable for that.
OSAS truly does lead to a life of sin. I’m not ever going to believe or have someone say it does not…and I’m not going to believe the lie that it means something different when it doesn’t. I have dealt with enough folks who believe in it to know otherwise.
Anything you say to try to teach that it doesn’t will be conceding the “always saved” part.
The Gospel itself speaks of and to eternal irrevocable salvation in Christ.
What its detractors refer to as OSAS.
ETERNAL salvation, OSAS, as we know, has never been a licensed to sin.Ever!
Jesus tells us this,and why it is a fact. His detractors however are lazy. They spout falsehoods against Christ and his own because they are opposed to learning the Bible. And are more fond of assaulting it and believers in Christ.
Jesus talks about that faction too.
Poor lost souls.
Their time is short and yet they do not know this either.
What its detractors refer to as OSAS.
ETERNAL salvation, OSAS, as we know, has never been a licensed to sin.Ever!
Jesus tells us this,and why it is a fact. His detractors however are lazy. They spout falsehoods against Christ and his own because they are opposed to learning the Bible. And are more fond of assaulting it and believers in Christ.
Jesus talks about that faction too.
Poor lost souls.
Their time is short and yet they do not know this either.-
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[QUOTE="Everlasting-Grace, post: 5471998, member: 312779" I am confused. can you help me?
How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. You mean it must be COMPLETELY GOD's decision or COMPLETELY OURS? You do not really believe this false dichotom, do you? However, to answer your question, we do not depend on ourselves to perform the actual work of being born again. That power comes from the activity of the Holy Spirit acting in response to our faith in the gospel:
5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the WASHING OF THE NEW BIRTH and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,… (Titus 3:5-6)]
Once we believe and are born again by the Spirit, Christ tells us that we are to ABIDE in that relationship. The word abide
is the Greek verb "μένω" (menó) which primarily means to remain in or stay in a given place, state, or relationship. It conveys a sense of persistence and continuity, often implying a steadfastness or enduring presence. In the New Testament, this word was frequently used to describe a believer's relationship with Christ, which emphasized a continual, abiding connection with Him. This refutes your claim that continuance in faith is not a requirement for remaining in Him
https://biblehub.com/greek/3306.htm.
That the above meaning is indeed what Jesus and John were attempting to convey is shown by the fact that the word REMAIN (in Christ), is in the PRESENT TENSE IMPERATIVE MOOD. Present tense imperative verbs indicate something we must CONTINUALLY DO. Thus when Jesus said abide in me He was not saying merely to participate in His life for a period of time but to CONTINUE to do so. Therefore, once the Holy Spirit grafts us into the Vine we are commanded to STAY there - which requires our ongoing consent and participation.
The verb abide is a derivative of menó (μένω) which is "equivalent to not to depart, not to leave, but to continue to be present. When coupled with the genitive of a person it means to maintain unbroken fellowship with one, ot to "adhere to his party," If it were IMPOSSIBLE for us to ever depart from Christ it would have been unnecessary to COMMAND us not to. Commands are not descriptions about what must happen. They are statements about what will happen IF we choose obey or disobey. Thus, for the imperative verb to be coherent in this passage, it must be possible to either stay with or depart from Christ.
How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. You mean it must be COMPLETELY GOD's decision or COMPLETELY OURS? You do not really believe this false dichotom, do you? However, to answer your question, we do not depend on ourselves to perform the actual work of being born again. That power comes from the activity of the Holy Spirit acting in response to our faith in the gospel:
5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the WASHING OF THE NEW BIRTH and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,… (Titus 3:5-6)]
Once we believe and are born again by the Spirit, Christ tells us that we are to ABIDE in that relationship. The word abide
is the Greek verb "μένω" (menó) which primarily means to remain in or stay in a given place, state, or relationship. It conveys a sense of persistence and continuity, often implying a steadfastness or enduring presence. In the New Testament, this word was frequently used to describe a believer's relationship with Christ, which emphasized a continual, abiding connection with Him. This refutes your claim that continuance in faith is not a requirement for remaining in Him
https://biblehub.com/greek/3306.htm.
That the above meaning is indeed what Jesus and John were attempting to convey is shown by the fact that the word REMAIN (in Christ), is in the PRESENT TENSE IMPERATIVE MOOD. Present tense imperative verbs indicate something we must CONTINUALLY DO. Thus when Jesus said abide in me He was not saying merely to participate in His life for a period of time but to CONTINUE to do so. Therefore, once the Holy Spirit grafts us into the Vine we are commanded to STAY there - which requires our ongoing consent and participation.
The verb abide is a derivative of menó (μένω) which is "equivalent to not to depart, not to leave, but to continue to be present. When coupled with the genitive of a person it means to maintain unbroken fellowship with one, ot to "adhere to his party," If it were IMPOSSIBLE for us to ever depart from Christ it would have been unnecessary to COMMAND us not to. Commands are not descriptions about what must happen. They are statements about what will happen IF we choose obey or disobey. Thus, for the imperative verb to be coherent in this passage, it must be possible to either stay with or depart from Christ.
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Whoa, slow down. I and my best friend were raised as OSAS Baptists, but I saw the light and now affirm moral free will,
whereas he has remained confused about that doctrine as far as I know, but we both still practice the same moral teachings.
So, logically OSAS either serves as a license to sin or else it makes a person deny the sinner was ever saved,
but practically many folks do not think about such issues and would think those who debate on CC are nutso!
whereas he has remained confused about that doctrine as far as I know, but we both still practice the same moral teachings.
So, logically OSAS either serves as a license to sin or else it makes a person deny the sinner was ever saved,
but practically many folks do not think about such issues and would think those who debate on CC are nutso!