The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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This is one of the reasoning to logical conclusion issues for this interpretive theory. @Kroogz seemed to state openly the "one and done" (believe for eternal life) and sin as much as we want, go to heaven when we die, and just lose rewards theory.
I used to live in an area filled with this teaching, and others, but the sinful lifestyles while professing Christ were out of control.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable (disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Titus 1:16 NKJ)
I used to live in an area filled with this teaching, and others, but the sinful lifestyles while professing Christ were out of control.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable (disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Titus 1:16 NKJ)
Last point of this contentiousness and you can have the last word of this type and even continue if you'd like.
You're projecting again. The beginning of my discussions with you were dealing with your rudeness. In addition, I'm versed enough to see the bullies who attempt to influence the discussion with a supposed knowledge of Greek, which I sat under for 3,000 to 4,000 hours of teaching - listening for years as a nearly full-time job - then became formally trained in and thereafter have been practicing for 2+ decades much of which was spent teaching from. I can see you and I know your theology.
The wisest thing you are doing is being silent with explaining yourself from Scripture because there are a few of us here who can take you to task and very likely more deeply than you are able to go in the Text.
With that said, hopefully clearly enough, I'm not suggesting any one of us can prove to any other's satisfaction how and where they may be wrong. Belief is a powerful capability whatever it believes.
You're projecting again. The beginning of my discussions with you were dealing with your rudeness. In addition, I'm versed enough to see the bullies who attempt to influence the discussion with a supposed knowledge of Greek, which I sat under for 3,000 to 4,000 hours of teaching - listening for years as a nearly full-time job - then became formally trained in and thereafter have been practicing for 2+ decades much of which was spent teaching from. I can see you and I know your theology.
The wisest thing you are doing is being silent with explaining yourself from Scripture because there are a few of us here who can take you to task and very likely more deeply than you are able to go in the Text.
With that said, hopefully clearly enough, I'm not suggesting any one of us can prove to any other's satisfaction how and where they may be wrong. Belief is a powerful capability whatever it believes.
Talk about falsly accusing.
Now compare this with people who paul continued to go against, self righteous people who thought they were saved beased on what they do. how good they were. or following certain commands.
its amazing,
the licentious calls grace believers legalistic. because we call them out when they try to think they can commit all these sins and it is ok.
the legalist calls us out because they claim we believe we can live in sin.
sadly. both are based in pride
one refuses to repent of his or her sins, the other refuses to repent and acknowledge God as the only way to heaven.
I was saved by GRACE, not of works lest I should boast.
Keep on boasting, then deny you are boasting..
your just hurting yourself.
Now compare this with people who paul continued to go against, self righteous people who thought they were saved beased on what they do. how good they were. or following certain commands.
its amazing,
the licentious calls grace believers legalistic. because we call them out when they try to think they can commit all these sins and it is ok.
the legalist calls us out because they claim we believe we can live in sin.
sadly. both are based in pride
one refuses to repent of his or her sins, the other refuses to repent and acknowledge God as the only way to heaven.
I was saved by GRACE, not of works lest I should boast.
Keep on boasting, then deny you are boasting..
your just hurting yourself.
I never assume that an individual Christian's belief in Eternal Security leads them automatically to sin. I have known many who believe OSAS who live holy loving lives before God. I have also known seen many others who really do use OSAS as a license to sin. When I see that I pray they will repent for there is no cleansing for those who are refuse to walk in the light. Cleansing like salvation and the experience of Christs life is ongoing and depends on our CONTINUING in the light.
When it comes to salvation I see that there is a point at which we BEGIN to believe. After that comes a long growing season when we ABIDE in Him. Finally, will come the time of completion when we will be gathered into the barn. These three phases of life are revealed in the following scripture:
10 He HAS delivered (or saved) us from such a deadly peril, [past] and He will deliver (or save) us. In Him we have placed our hope that He WILL YET AGAIN deliver (save) us, [final destiny]
(2 Corinthians 1:10)
I have never believed I must EARN my position in Christ through the performance of "good works." EARNING eternal life is utterly foreign to me. I know myself too well. I am no more depending on myself now than I was when, under the conviction of the Spirit, I saw my sin and quit depending on myself and gave my life to Him. It is no more a work to do that now than it was when I first began trusting Christ.
When it comes to salvation I see that there is a point at which we BEGIN to believe. After that comes a long growing season when we ABIDE in Him. Finally, will come the time of completion when we will be gathered into the barn. These three phases of life are revealed in the following scripture:
10 He HAS delivered (or saved) us from such a deadly peril, [past] and He will deliver (or save) us. In Him we have placed our hope that He WILL YET AGAIN deliver (save) us, [final destiny]
(2 Corinthians 1:10)
I have never believed I must EARN my position in Christ through the performance of "good works." EARNING eternal life is utterly foreign to me. I know myself too well. I am no more depending on myself now than I was when, under the conviction of the Spirit, I saw my sin and quit depending on myself and gave my life to Him. It is no more a work to do that now than it was when I first began trusting Christ.
Falsely accusing who? If it doesn't fit you, then relax. But I can assure you it fits others. If @Kroogz thinks differently, he can clear it up himself, which is why I flagged him because I mentioned something I recalled him saying.
All different traditions call each other out. So do you. So do I. It's why I try to get back to Scripture but it's not easy to do.
I don't think it's all pride. As I said earlier, belief is a strong capacity and among other factors different people have different reactions or responses to protect theirs.
So were all of us who were saved.
You should really stop the accusations and apply your last statement to yourself with a little spelling correction.
All different traditions call each other out. So do you. So do I. It's why I try to get back to Scripture but it's not easy to do.
I don't think it's all pride. As I said earlier, belief is a strong capacity and among other factors different people have different reactions or responses to protect theirs.
So were all of us who were saved.
You should really stop the accusations and apply your last statement to yourself with a little spelling correction.
You know this is the meat of the word. But if you're still stuck on salvation and the milk. You mix the meat with the milk.
Those who think salvation can be lost, forfeited or maintained are ALWAYS out of fellowship with the Spirit who Guarantees their eternal life.
You Are sinning habitually by denying HIM who bought you. You are NOT your own.
Everything you are doing is through your own human good/evil......Burned up. And saved as if through fire.
Paul understood this VERY well.
Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
We can tell a mature believer from an immature believer pretty easily......Ask them how much they sin. Because when one gets to know true holiness......We all sin all the time.
Those who think salvation can be lost, forfeited or maintained are ALWAYS out of fellowship with the Spirit who Guarantees their eternal life.
You Are sinning habitually by denying HIM who bought you. You are NOT your own.
Everything you are doing is through your own human good/evil......Burned up. And saved as if through fire.
Paul understood this VERY well.
Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
We can tell a mature believer from an immature believer pretty easily......Ask them how much they sin. Because when one gets to know true holiness......We all sin all the time.
i did not want to sin. I left the church because my wife kicked me out of my house for another man. And I felt like a failure and judged because I was in a legalistic church where it was forbidden to leave the marraige. they expected me to fight for it.. and I was done. so I left.
That is an excruciatingly painful and demeaning thing to go through. I know because I went through the same thing when my former wife abandoned me to go after another man. According to Jesus Himself the marriage union cannot be EXCEPT in the case of adultery (on the part of either spouse) When it happens the guilt rests not on both equally but on the partner who COMMITTED THE CRIME. As bad as what your ex-spouse's adultery was, it FREED you from your covenant bond with her. After Israel broke their marriage covenant with God it was dissolved and they had no longer any relationship with Him.
9And the LORD said, “Name him (the son born of the union between Hosea and Gomer) Lo-ammi, for you are NOT MY PEOPLE, and I am NOT YOUR GOD (Hosea 1:9).
Whatever Church you were attending was wrong
That is an excruciatingly painful and demeaning thing to go through. I know because I went through the same thing when my former wife abandoned me to go after another man. According to Jesus Himself the marriage union cannot be EXCEPT in the case of adultery (on the part of either spouse) When it happens the guilt rests not on both equally but on the partner who COMMITTED THE CRIME. As bad as what your ex-spouse's adultery was, it FREED you from your covenant bond with her. After Israel broke their marriage covenant with God it was dissolved and they had no longer any relationship with Him.
9And the LORD said, “Name him (the son born of the union between Hosea and Gomer) Lo-ammi, for you are NOT MY PEOPLE, and I am NOT YOUR GOD (Hosea 1:9).
Whatever Church you were attending was wrong
My condolences for the sufferings you've gone through. I think we likely all have our own histories and we're still here so we may have more. FWIW, I'm aware of experiences others have gone through with marriages and church direction that is worse than your experience. I'm not saying this to slight what you went through but to comment on the condition of churches.
With that said and meant, you know your above apology is rhetorical and I'll just add is another poor evaluation of what I know and understand.
I'll also say what I began saying to you; your experiences and the ways you ultimately handled them does not mean that all have or will share your outcome of holding onto your faith knowing God has ahold of you.
An observation about this thread as about most of these threads; the OP remains unresolved and debated, which is another example of the condition of the church (but not His Ekklesia) that remains disappointing to many and for good reason.
With that said and meant, you know your above apology is rhetorical and I'll just add is another poor evaluation of what I know and understand.
I'll also say what I began saying to you; your experiences and the ways you ultimately handled them does not mean that all have or will share your outcome of holding onto your faith knowing God has ahold of you.
An observation about this thread as about most of these threads; the OP remains unresolved and debated, which is another example of the condition of the church (but not His Ekklesia) that remains disappointing to many and for good reason.
After all these pages and the atmosphere replies have generated I've arrived at the question, what are we really doing here?
The OP poses a question. And we answer based on our own understanding of the Bible.
We each live our faith. And we try to lead others to believe as we do. And expect those to whom we post will concede we are right and by that concession admit they are wrong.
Rarely does someone say that. "You are right. I was reading that passage the wrong way."
Instead, we all act as though we want to win the argument.
And how do we talk to one another in the coarse of all this?
We wonder why the church,Christian individuals, is divided. I think we can see why in these many pages.
Love God. Live peace.
The OP poses a question. And we answer based on our own understanding of the Bible.
We each live our faith. And we try to lead others to believe as we do. And expect those to whom we post will concede we are right and by that concession admit they are wrong.
Rarely does someone say that. "You are right. I was reading that passage the wrong way."
Instead, we all act as though we want to win the argument.
And how do we talk to one another in the coarse of all this?
We wonder why the church,Christian individuals, is divided. I think we can see why in these many pages.
Love God. Live peace.