The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Lamar]

Its not an OSAS issue per say

You either believe in the promises of God based on being saved by Grace through faith.

Or you believe salvation must be earned by things you do, things you do not do. or living up to some standard.

People make it an OSAS issue, I believe it comes from an anti calvinist slant.. instead of looking at the word.. they are trying to appose another belief system

This is most certainly a OSAS issue.

You either believe salvation in the promises of God on being saved by Grace through the obedience of faith.

Or you believe salvation must be earned through allegiance to a manmade theology of faith alone regeneration.

People make this a works based issue, I believe it comes from a warped conflating of obedience and assistance...instead of looking the the word...they are trying to defend a theology without an example.

 

[studier]

allegiance to a manmade theology of faith alone regeneration

Nicely stated.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Everlasting-Grace said:
I believe again what the word says.

for God so loved the world. He gave his only son, that whoever (in that world) believe in him, will NEVER PERISH. and they will LIVE FOREVER.

Just like then Moses lifted the Serpent. Those who looked in faith lived. those who chose to not look because of unbelief, well they were condemned already. If they did not repent. and look. they would suffer their fate/ If they chose to repent and believe and looked. They would not die.



Your quotes and your highlights of Scripture:

that whoever (in that world) believe in him​

​

Those who looked in faith lived​

​

those who chose to not look because of unbelief, well they were condemned already​

​

If they did not repent. and look. they would suffer their fate​

​

If they chose to repent and believe and looked. They would not die.​

There seems to be a lot of things men need to choose and do in order to be saved:

1. They must [hear and learn to] believe
2. They must look in faith
3. They must repent and look
4. They must choose to repent and believe and look.

So, men must [hear and learn] and chose to repent and believe and look to be saved? And once they do all of this and are "saved", they don't have to do anything - or where do you go from here?

If you have done all of this

1. You are justified (declaired righteous, or innocent) Rom 3, 4, 5, 8, 1 cor 6, Gal 3, Titus 3,
2. You are redeemed Gal 3, 1 peter 1, rev 5
3. You are adopted as Gods child, romans 8, eph 1
4. You have been made alive in Christ and are no longer dead to God , eph 2, Col 2, 1 peter 2
5. You have been given EVERY spiritual blessing under heaven eph 1
6. You have been baptized into Christ, His death and his burial, into his body. and into himself romans 6, gal 5, 1 cor 12
7. You have been given the spirit as a pledge until the day of redemption. 2 cor 2, eph 1, eph 4
8.. You are no longer under law you are under grace. romans 6,
9, You have gods promise you will never hunger, never thirst. you will live forever. never perish, never die, and you will be raised John 6
10, we have been perfected forever. heb 10

I can go on and on and on. But I hope you see the picture.

what happens then?

We are babes.
we need fed milk
we need to grow
we need to abide in Christ if we want to produce fruit.
We need to work out our salvation and be lights to the world.. to draw others to Christ.

we also have Gods promise

1. If we leave, he will come after us
2. He will never leave nor forsake us
3. when we get out of line. Like Jonah, he will chasten us.. and redirect our path
4. He will conform us to his image.
He will keep his promise

From this I glean that you do believe men choose to believe or to reject God and/or Christ, which is all I asked you to clarify so I wouldn't assume what you think.

I have extensive exposure to some who would consider you to be a works salvationist based simply upon your belief (assuming I understand you correctly) that unbelievers choose to believe. And I'm not speaking of Calvinists.

Yes. I know a Calvinist thinks I believe in works.. That does not make them right.

sadly. I see people so against Calvinism, they do like many do. and go 180 degrees out to not even give them an inch.

I think this is what happens with the Calvinist debates people are so against this fatalistic view of God. they will not even give them any point of being true;. they must appose them at all cost..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is a true statement. Because of Adam we are born into sin. And so the saying goes “no there is not ONE righteous, no not one.” And “for we ALL fall short of the glory of God.
buuuut, when you are born again, you are imputed with God’s righteousness. You are no longer a sinner. At the same time (like the example of Lazareth) you become spiritually alive, and you now know God, but better yet, are known by Him. You are sinless, a saint, and a few other things God claims you to be in Christ. For if God be for us, who can be against us.
AND THAT IS WHY JOHN MAKES THAT CLAIM. Everyone on this planet sins everyday. Except those in Christ. There’s no other way to rectify this saying. If there is Id like to know it.
Thanks, and I apologize if I seem too straightforward, but it drops my jaw that people get something else from it. Every human being will sin daily until the day they die. Except those in Christ. Why? Because God said so.

The point John is making is we can not live in sin.

A non believers sins 24/7, A believer does not

every thought of a non believer is about self. Thats impossible for a believer. God turns our thoughts to him and others.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is most certainly a OSAS issue.

No its not. Unless your an arminian or calvinist. if your an arminian. You HATE OSAS because you hate calvin. if your a calvinst. Its all about OSAS.

You either believe salvation in the promises of God on being saved by Grace through the obedience of faith.

Grace THROUGH FAITH.. not of works.. as long as you do not add works. you are spot on.

the issue is, people want to add their words

Or you believe salvation must be earned through allegiance to a manmade theology of faith alone regeneration.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith not works

faith minus works equals faith alone

so it is not manmade

People make this a works based issue, I believe it comes from a warped conflating of obedience and assistance...instead of looking the the word...they are trying to defend a theology without an example.

people make it a works issue when they claim we can have forgiveness of sins because we do some good works.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOSUNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US

Thats the gospel. add good deeds to it (works of righteousness) and you add a false gospel. which is the true man made gospel

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Nicely stated.

ahh, once again, You agree you are trying to earn your salvation by works..

thank you

 

[studier]

Yes. I know a Calvinist thinks I believe in works.. That does not make them right.

I was referring to some in the Grace camp that would see your view as works.

If you have done all of this

1. You are justified (declaired righteous, or innocent) Rom 3, 4, 5, 8, 1 cor 6, Gal 3, Titus 3,
2. You are redeemed Gal 3, 1 peter 1, rev 5
3. You are adopted as Gods child, romans 8, eph 1
4. You have been made alive in Christ and are no longer dead to God , eph 2, Col 2, 1 peter 2
5. You have been given EVERY spiritual blessing under heaven eph 1
6. You have been baptized into Christ, His death and his burial, into his body. and into himself romans 6, gal 5, 1 cor 12
7. You have been given the spirit as a pledge until the day of redemption. 2 cor 2, eph 1, eph 4
8.. You are no longer under law you are under grace. romans 6,
9, You have gods promise you will never hunger, never thirst. you will live forever. never perish, never die, and you will be raised John 6
10, we have been perfected forever. heb 10

I can go on and on and on. But I hope you see the picture.

what happens then?

We are babes.
we need fed milk
we need to grow
we need to abide in Christ if we want to produce fruit.
We need to work out our salvation and be lights to the world.. to draw others to Christ.

we also have Gods promise

1. If we leave, he will come after us
2. He will never leave nor forsake us
3. when we get out of line. Like Jonah, he will chasten us.. and redirect our path
4. He will conform us to his image.
He will keep his promise

Yes, I'm familiar with all of this and if you did go on, I'd likely be familiar with that also. I'm not looking up all your verse references. If you format them a bit differently, the system may pick them up and provide the lookup for us.

Would I be correct that your short list of "we need" #3-#5 has no associated penalty other than some Divine discipline, and no fruit simply means no rewards, but no big deal because heaven is assured? So, "we need" only means if we want to produce fruit and receive rewards? IOW "we need" is optional?

Or if these things are not taking place, then maybe there was no actual belief, repentance, looking (and whatever else was on the list you seem to have agreed with)? Where do you stand on this? Please forgive me for not going back and looking at all posts.​

​

And it seemed you were mostly in disagreement with @JimiSurvivor regarding the sense of continuous present tenses, so continuous belief or continuous abiding or continuous eating and drinking is not necessary for salvation and not accurate translation and interpretation?

 

[bluejean_bible]

they never see things like this

Or have read 1 John 3.

For me someone claiming the name of Christ and saying their salvation is a license to sin is a liar on all counts.

A Christian knows what sin is and its cost. Which is how a Christian knows what salvation from sin is.

Therefore,thinking a Christian could say and believe,when they first claim belief in the bringer of the gospel,Jesus,that his sacrifice now permits them a return to their old sin mindset,is contradictory to being a new creation in Christ.
It is the argument of a sinner who likes to sin. And in their hubris insist God approves.

While the teachings of Jesus prove differently.

The argument that God made a covenant that allows that one in the covenant to do everything Jesus condemned and died to overcome is the argument of the unbeliever.

 

[studier]

ahh, once again, You agree you are trying to earn your salvation by works..

thank you

Quite the eureka moment for you it seems.

What I agreed with is quite clear. To elaborate a bit, yes, IMO there is a manmade [erroneous] theology of faith alone regeneration.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I was referring to some in the Grace camp that would see your view as works.

The only people that believe this are calvinst.

Unless you can share some other ones? I have never heard a grace believer think that a person who allows another person to save them earned or worked for his salvation.

Yes, I'm familiar with all of this and if you did go on, I'd likely be familiar with that also. I'm not looking up all your verse references. If you format them a bit differently, the system may pick them up and provide the lookup for us.

Would I be correct that your short list of "we need" #3-#5 has no associated penalty other than some Divine discipline, and no fruit simply means no rewards, but no big deal because heaven is assured? So, "we need" only means if we want to produce fruit and receive rewards? IOW "we need" is optional?

Are you saved or not? Are you justified or not? Are you sealed or are you not?

Or if these things are not taking place, then maybe there was no actual belief, repentance, looking (and whatever else was on the list you seem to have agreed with)? Where do you stand on this? Please forgive me for not going back and looking at all posts.​

​

And it seemed you were mostly in disagreement with @JimiSurvivor regarding the sense of continuous present tenses, so continuous belief or continuous abiding or continuous eating and drinking is not necessary for salvation and not accurate translation and interpretation?

No. I am in disagreement with him because he says the word I or we have to do this or that to stay saved.

Jesus said if you eat and drink you will never hunger or thirst.

it is illogical to say you must keep eating or drinking, What would make that any different than Manna?

does the food endure to eternal life or not?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Quite the eureka moment for you it seems.

What I agreed with is quite clear. To elaborate a bit, yes, IMO there is a manmade [erroneous] theology of faith alone regeneration.

Yes, it is very clear.

You agreed that we need faith plus works to stay saved.

which is what he was assirting

as apposed to we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. not of works lest anyone should boast.

But that faith is never alone (the byproduct of faith is works)

Its not the byproduct of works is faith

 

[studier]

which is what he was assirting

Maybe @Lamar will clarify what he was asserting.

I've learned to let the ones asserting clarify what they're asserting and to ask questions until I understand them as best I can. Much of the time they get defensive and start making allegations in response to my questions.

It looks like you see works salvation being asserted by nearly everyone, which is not unusual in some theological camps.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe @Lamar will clarify what he was asserting.

I've learned to let the ones asserting clarify what they're asserting and to ask questions until I understand them as best I can. Much of the time they get defensive and start making allegations in response to my questions.

It looks like you see works salvation being asserted by nearly everyone, which is not unusual in some theological camps.

Really?

Nah.. Just those who add the word I to grace. or add the words We must do this or that. or we can lose salvation if we do not meet some standard.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

All USER @JimiSurvivor has been showing me is he believes he has to maintain his own salvation by doing something. Same things as you have been showing me.
[/QUOTE]

You neglected to mention that the "thing" I said we must CONTINUE to "Do" is to keep believing in Jesus and continuing in the gospel.
The scripture verifies this: …22But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— (Colossians 1:22)
We can see by this that God's highest will for us - to ultimately present us to Himself "holy, unblemished and blameless" in His Presence [i.e., before His throne]. However, to this great hope God attaches a CONDITION with the conjunction IF:

23 IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:22)

You have taken the position that we do not really have to continue in the faith No matter how we live, even if Christians should renounce Christ and abandon the Faith they will end up before God complete, and without a single blemish. Paul said that whether we enter our inheritance at all depends on whether we CONTINUE IN THE FAITH and are not MOVED AWAY FROM IT or from the GOSPEL. Thus the verse affirms that it is most POSSIBLE for us to "NOT CONTINUE" in the faith but to be "moved away" from it.

You have even suggested that ongoing faith and obedience to Him gospel is a heavy burden like the yoke of the Law which Peter said "neither he nor his forefathers could carry." That us not what Christ said about serving Him. He said:
28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.…(Matthew 11:28-29)
Serving Him is not a heavy burden because He has given us the Holy Spirit who gives us the grace to be changed and to serve Him.
[/QUOTE]
1. I ask you a question

2. You dodge the question or do not answer the question

3 You ask me a question which really has no bearing on what we are discussing. or I answer the Question (Like I did this time) and you act as if I did not. s there a problem?[/QUOTE]

As a matter of fact, there was a reason I did not immediately answer you and it was about my health not you.

 

[studier]

The only people that believe this are calvinst.

This is part of the issue I first addressed with you. You speak in absolute. I've known and have been closely associated with staunchly anti-Calvinist grace camp Christians that have asserted works salvation against those with your beliefs about what faith is and includes.

Are you saved or not? Are you justified or not? Are you sealed or are you not?

I think you've already made it clear that if I say I am, you'll disagree.

No. I am in disagreement with him because he says the word I or we have to do this or that to stay saved.

Jesus said if you eat and drink you will never hunger or thirst.

it is illogical to say you must keep eating or drinking, What would make that any different than Manna?

does the food endure to eternal life or not?

Again, your interpretation of what others say, and mean is not something I'll accept.

It's illogical to speak of eating and drinking as a continuing process while we're here?

I'll bet @JimiSurvivor and/or I and/or others could ask you some questions about the verb tenses in John6 that you may not be able to answer or if you did, we'd likely show some alternative interpretations that you wouldn't accept.

 

[studier]

Really?

Nah.. Just those who add the word I to grace. or add the words We must do this or that. or we can lose salvation if we do not meet some standard.

we need to grow
we need to abide in Christ if we want to produce fruit.
We need to work out our salvation and be lights to the world.. to draw others to Christ.

Are you using "must" and "need" differently?

 

[GWH]

How many times do we have to say the words of John.

Whoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD.

Does it get any simpler then this? Free will is left in tact. But we can not continue in sin. not does God give us a license to sin.

John did NOT say "whoever".

A person who claims to be a Christian but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or

d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21, 1JN 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

e. an apostate (1JN 2:19, HB 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1TM 1:19-20).

Not so simple?

 

[GWH]

If you have done all of this

1. You are justified (declaired righteous, or innocent) Rom 3, 4, 5, 8, 1 cor 6, Gal 3, Titus 3,
2. You are redeemed Gal 3, 1 peter 1, rev 5
3. You are adopted as Gods child, romans 8, eph 1
4. You have been made alive in Christ and are no longer dead to God , eph 2, Col 2, 1 peter 2
5. You have been given EVERY spiritual blessing under heaven eph 1
6. You have been baptized into Christ, His death and his burial, into his body. and into himself romans 6, gal 5, 1 cor 12
7. You have been given the spirit as a pledge until the day of redemption. 2 cor 2, eph 1, eph 4
8.. You are no longer under law you are under grace. romans 6,
9, You have gods promise you will never hunger, never thirst. you will live forever. never perish, never die, and you will be raised John 6
10, we have been perfected forever. heb 10

I can go on and on and on. But I hope you see the picture.

what happens then?

We are babes.
we need fed milk
we need to grow
we need to abide in Christ if we want to produce fruit.
We need to work out our salvation and be lights to the world.. to draw others to Christ.

we also have Gods promise

1. If we leave, he will come after us
2. He will never leave nor forsake us
3. when we get out of line. Like Jonah, he will chasten us.. and redirect our path
4. He will conform us to his image.
He will keep his promise



Yes. I know a Calvinist thinks I believe in works.. That does not make them right.

sadly. I see people so against Calvinism, they do like many do. and go 180 degrees out to not even give them an inch.

I think this is what happens with the Calvinist debates people are so against this fatalistic view of God. they will not even give them any point of being true;. they must appose them at all cost..

Searching Scripture and finding numerous passages indicating the need for perseverance leads the open-minded truthseeker to view the Calvinist doctrine known as “once saved, always saved” (OSAS) as mistaken. The problematic part of Calvinist teachings may be called “TULIPism”: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance (OSAS). TULIP is problematic because in affirming the sovereignty of God it contradicts biblical teaching that God loves everyone and forces no one to be chosen or damned.

Regarding the human soul and agency: the Bible does teach that humans are sinful and bound for hell unless God saves them (RM 3:23), but it also indicates that God graces every sinner with sufficient volition to repent and seek His salvation (MT 77, 1TM 2:3-4). Sinners who choose to seek will find God, but those who ignore His grace will be judged justly. (both-and logic)

This interpretation of Scripture is sometimes called Arminianism, because it views normal adult human souls as having God-given moral free will (MFW) and thus accountability for their sinful choices. Thus, those who affirm this understanding may be termed “MFWists”, meaning that “God initiates; sinners may cooperate–or not.”

 

[studier]

Uh-oh. I see another conflict coming.

 

[Kroogz]

Whoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

When we are abiding in Him we cannot sin. When we are in the flesh And operating in the flesh We have never seen nor known Him...In our flesh.

True Holiness? What is true Holiness? It is never doing or thinking anything outside of His plan for us. It is to "hit the mark" 110% of the time. This is an either or for the believer.

We are either in the Spirit and not sinning or we are in the flesh and sinning......We all sin and we all pretty much do it all the time.


Guilt, worry, fear, frustration, anger, anxiety ......Are ALL sins and have no place in the Christian way of life. What we learn is to recognize it and name and site it to God.

An honest believer will recognize how imperfect they are, and acknowledge it to God.....and that is pretty much every hour as we are awake and living in this world.