Hay, wait for me.

Kroogz · Dec 20, 2023

For your consideration:

--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" is on the earth and commences in earnest upon Christ's "return" to the earth / 2nd Coming to the earth (the earthly MK age [or at least its inauguration] being "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," which is what the word in v.10 here is speaking to)

--the "10 Virgins" (or even the "5 Wise Virgins" are not the "Bride/Wife [singular]" (the "a chaste virgin [singular]" presently "betrothed" per 1Cor11:2--that's us); Jesus is not coming in this passage to "MARRY" 10 or even "5 Virgins" (these are not the "Bride / Wife [singular]" and this point in the chronology is not "our Rapture [in the air]," but His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" [earthly-located]);

Again, not speaking of "our Rapture" time-slot; nor of "the Bride / Wife [singular]" here.

Yes, and the one that occurs "seven years later" is where the "10 Virgins" parable has its ending point (the "5 Wise Virgins" will go in "with [G3326--accompanying] Him" to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" [not "the marriage" itself, pertaining to the "Bride/Wife" alone (UP THERE)]; notice THIS "WITH" word (G3326--accompanying [Him]) is DISTINCT FROM the "WITH [G4862--UNIONed-with [Him]" word that is used of US / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (aka also being the presently-betrothed "VIRGIN-singular [the Bride/Wife-singular]") in the passages pertaining to "our Rapture"

The parables don't really get into the details regarding the "mark of the beast" and so forth, so it's difficult for many to see... but again,THIS time-slot (you are showing here) is when the results of the 10 Virgins parable fit in (time-wise), because it is talking about their ENTRANCE (or NOT) of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth--same time-slot as when Lk12:36-37,38,40 says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom], THEN "the meal [G347; see this word also in Matt8:11 and its parallel; speaking of the earthly MK age])

TOTALLY AGREE with you on that point... and is why I am such a stickler on this Subject (eschatology).

Thank you for your patience... I do hope you will consider my points here... and I'm willing to attempt to clarify, should you need clarification on anything I've put. = )

You have done your homework! You obviously know the specific details of the ancient Jewish weddings. How they specifically work and the rituals. Do you have a previous thread that shows the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony? Because it is amazing the parallels of those weddings and the rapture of His bride.

GRACE_ambassador · Dec 20, 2023

selahsays said:

GRACE_ambassador said:

selahsays said:

Precious friend, you're welcome. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 + This:

"Behold, I shew you A Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but

we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of

an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and

the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be

changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal

must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have

put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is

swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)

10-22-27 said:

Amen.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

10-22-27 said:

He went up "visibly" and will so "RETURN" (to the earth) "visibly"--when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him (what 2Th2:8b calls the "MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia of Him"--distinct from v.1's point in time [i.e. "our Rapture"]). This is what Acts 1's (His SECOND) ascension speaks to--the "MANIFESTATION OF the presence / parousia of Him" 2Th2:8b, when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him
(I hope you agree that His EARLIER ascension, ON FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day [some "40 days" earlier], was only TOLD [by Jesus Himself] to Mary Magdalene [and she was instructed to "Go... and SAY UNTO [them]" about it], but this ascension was not VISIBLY SEEN by anyone [same way that 2Th2:1 and 2:8b are CONTRASTED, b/c they are at distinct points in time, in the chronology--"7 yrs" apart (like the "40 days" that separated Jesus' TWO ascensions)].)

Rev19 says "armIES" come with Him when He is RETURNING to the earth; and I'm not sure but I don't see where "angels" are ever in scripture spoken of in the PLURAL using that word (the Grk word for "army / armies"). [???]

Also, the EARTHLY MK age is the LOCATION OF "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," so of course we [His "Bride / Wife [singular]"] will be "WITH [G4862] Him" and not left up in Heaven while He RETURNS FOR the "festivities" WITHOUT US, lol (coz that "WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him" thing started way back at "our Rapture" time-slot, 7 years earlier);

...and consider, the "24 elders" represent the raptured and already-awarded / -rewarded [at the BEMA of Christ--ONLY for the Church which is His body] Church, as evidenced by the "stephanous / crowns" they are wearing, and that passage states of them: "SHALL reign on/upon the earth" (Rev5:9-10) [note: I'm not saying LIMITED solely to the earth]... so yes, I believe we RETURN "WITH Him" (Col3:4 seems also to speak of this; as well as 2Th1:10a when that section [vv.7-10] is properly understood

... and others...])

achduke7 · Dec 20, 2023

selahsays said:

Hi Selasays,

I am post trib/pre wrath myself.

One part of 1 Thess 4 many misunderstand is that this is about the resurrection also. Many say that the rapture is not mentioned by the gospels but the 4 gospels often mention the resurrection many times. 1 Thess 4:14 starts off with how Jesus died and rose which is the very definition and context of the resurrection.

10-22-27 · Dec 20, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

This parable of ten virgins follows closely the ancient custom of the people of Israel. The bridegroom proposes, bringing gifts to the parents of his future bride. Jesus left us with his gift, the Holy Spirit.

The bridegroom then goes to prepare a place at his father's home. Jesus went to prepare a place for us at his Father's house. Only the father knows when he will send his son. Only our heavily Father knows when Jesus is coming for his bride.

When the groom is ready, a delegation is sent out before him to sound their instruments giving the bride the opportunity to make ready. Jesus will send an angel with a trumpet before his bride is taken. The groom then leaves at (I believe midnight) goes to the bride's home, she comes out of her parent's home to meet him, he then takes her to his father's home. After that comes the wedding ceremony. This is exactly the way the Lord's marriage has been set up. Check it out.

10-22-27 · Dec 20, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

He went up "visibly" and will so "RETURN" (to the earth) "visibly"--when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him (what 2Th2:8b calls the "MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia of Him"--distinct from v.1's point in time [i.e. "our Rapture"]). This is what Acts 1's (His SECOND) ascension speaks to--the "MANIFESTATION OF the presence / parousia of Him" 2Th2:8b, when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him
(I hope you agree that His EARLIER ascension, ON FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day [some "40 days" earlier], was only TOLD [by Jesus Himself] to Mary Magdalene [and she was instructed to "Go... and SAY UNTO [them]" about it], but this ascension was not VISIBLY SEEN by anyone [same way that 2Th2:1 and 2:8b are CONTRASTED, b/c they are at distinct points in time, in the chronology--"7 yrs" apart (like the "40 days" that separated Jesus' TWO ascensions)].)

Rev19 says "armIES" come with Him when He is RETURNING to the earth; and I'm not sure but I don't see where "angels" are ever in scripture spoken of in the PLURAL using that word (the Grk word for "army / armies"). [???]

Also, the EARTHLY MK age is the LOCATION OF "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," so of course we [His "Bride / Wife [singular]"] will be "WITH [G4862] Him" and not left up in Heaven while He RETURNS FOR the "festivities" WITHOUT US, lol (coz that "WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him" thing started way back at "our Rapture" time-slot, 7 years earlier);

...and consider, the "24 elders" represent the raptured and already-awarded / -rewarded [at the BEMA of Christ--ONLY for the Church which is His body] Church, as evidenced by the "stephanous / crowns" they are wearing, and that passage states of them: "SHALL reign on/upon the earth" (Rev5:9-10) [note: I'm not saying LIMITED solely to the earth]... so yes, I believe we RETURN "WITH Him" (Col3:4 seems also to speak of this; as well as 2Th1:10a when that section [vv.7-10] is properly understood

... and others...])

10-22-27 · Dec 20, 2023

I really believe you are confusing two separate events. When the Lord comes for his bride, we shall meet him in the air, not on the ground. When he returns for the days of vengeance, he comes alone and returns on the Mt. of Olives, exactly the place he left from. One other issue, before he sets up his kingdom on earth, Ezekiel 39 tells us the earth will have to be cleansed of bodies and weapons of war. It will take seven years to do it, it's all laid out in Ezekiel 39. It's only then the Lord come to his throne on Mt. Moriah. Ezekiel 39:16, "Thus shall they cleanse the land." Verse 22, "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and foreword."

Once the kingdom is set up, those Jews who came out of the tribulation, will be used by the Lord. Zechariah 8:23, "In those days it shall come to pass that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations (Gentile nations), even shall take hold of the (sleeve) of him that is a Jew, saying, we will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

Also, the 12 apostles will rule with him in the 1000 years, Matthew 19:28, Jesus is speaking to the twelve, "When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Keep in mind the greatest war is still future, after the 1000 years reign of Christ is over. Revelation 20:7-8, "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, God and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." that's my take on this subject.
"It ain't over till it's over."

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

Kroogz said:

Thank you for such kind words.

I've only been working on my "homework" for [nearly] 50 years! Haha.

Let me just say that I've heard and read plenty on the subject... but let me say that I agree with some [people's take on it] and disagree with some [people's take on it]; I endeavor to stick as close to the scripture as I can, but I see where some (holding this view) tend to "conflate" some things, and it is in those areas that I tend to disagree with them (on those particular points).

For example, I do NOT believe Jesus [ever since His ascension] STILL DOES NOT "KNOW"; No, I believe He DOES "know" and has, ever since His ascension... and then some 60 years LATER, disclose FURTHER INFORMATION on that very Subject, in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO..." including a great many specific details regarding "timing" (esp. regarding His Second Coming to the earth, the Subject of Matt24:36 and parallel passages/wording, but also as to "our rapture"... distinct as to its timing]; I also think this is why the "know" in Matt24:36 is distinct from the "know" He used in Acts 1:7 (as I see it, He could only say what He did to them, in Acts 1:7, because by that time He DID "know [Matt24:36 kind of "know"]); Matt24:36 is just saying "knoweth [PERFECT tense] no man [not even Jesus, at the time]," not saying no one CAN / WILL ever know. AFTER His ascension (around 95ad), He DISCLOSED further information on that, including "timing" details.

So that's one area where I must disagree (with the common understanding regarding the Jewish wedding ceremony);
I also disagree that "Matt24:36" speaks to "our RAPTURE"-timing; no, this "context" is His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the EARTHLY MK age (so the supposed "idiom"--if it is one, referring to that certain date--it applies NOT to "our Rapture," but His Second Coming to the earth (but I disagree that it takes place on RH... so there's that too, lol);

... a few other disagreements.

Again, I endeavor to stick closely to scripture itself (though I do believe scripture itself touches on SOME of what they say/suggest about such)

Again, I believe EVERYTHING from Matthew 24:4 onward (through 2 chpts), is what will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and addresses that which will be the lead up to His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK age (aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES," aka "the meal [G347; Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc; and Matt8:11 and its parallel... and MANY other passages in the gospels...)

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

10-22-27 said:

"the 10 Virgins" NEVER LIFT OFF THE GROUND (nor do the "5 Wise Virgins"--they enter the TIME-period of the EARTHLY MK age, "accompanying [G3326] Him" THERE [the UNsaved will NOT enter that time-period / MK]); they are located on the earth upon His RETURN to the earth; (same as in Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc... many other passages in the gospels pertaining to this)

In Rev19, the "wedding" is already done (pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]");

also already completed is the "HAVING BEEN INVITED [to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER--earthly MK age]", which "INVITING" happened ALL THROUGHOUT THE 7-Yr Tribulation Period and pertains to the "THEY [plural]" (v.9, i.e. the "GUESTS [PLURAL]"--distinct from "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" of v.7!);

... and also to the "5 Wise VirginS [PLURAL]" (whom He is not "MARRYING"--grooms marry ONE... not FIVE--children grasp this

)... etc;

But "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" itself (in this text, Rev19) is NOT what is said has already taken place, instead it is where He is HEADING DOWN TO at that point in the chronology (and where the "meal" passages in the gospels pick up THE NEXT SCENE--NO ONE lifts off the earth in these passages and their parallels--For example, Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc [and its parallel], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom], THEN the "meal [G347; Matt8:11 and parallel; etc]")

Kroogz · Dec 20, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Thank you for such kind words.

I've only been working on my "homework" for [nearly] 50 years! Haha.

Let me just say that I've heard and read plenty on the subject... but let me say that I agree with some [people's take on it] and disagree with some [people's take on it]; I endeavor to stick as close to the scripture as I can, but I see where some (holding this view) tend to "conflate" some things, and it is in those areas that I tend to disagree with them (on those particular points).

For example, I do NOT believe Jesus [ever since His ascension] STILL DOES NOT "KNOW"; No, I believe He DOES "know" and has, ever since His ascension... and then some 60 years LATER, disclose FURTHER INFORMATION on that very Subject, in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO..." including a great many specific details regarding "timing" (esp. regarding His Second Coming to the earth, the Subject of Matt24:36 and parallel passages/wording, but also as to "our rapture"... distinct as to its timing]; I also think this is why the "know" in Matt24:36 is distinct from the "know" He used in Acts 1:7 (as I see it, He could only say what He did to them, in Acts 1:7, because by that time He DID "know [Matt24:36 kind of "know"]); Matt24:36 is just saying "knoweth [PERFECT tense] no man [not even Jesus, at the time]," not saying no one CAN / WILL ever know. AFTER His ascension (around 95ad), He DISCLOSED further information on that, including "timing" details.

So that's one area where I must disagree (with the common understanding regarding the Jewish wedding ceremony);
I also disagree that "Matt24:36" speaks to "our RAPTURE"-timing; no, this "context" is His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the EARTHLY MK age (so the supposed "idiom"--if it is one, referring to that certain date--it applies NOT to "our Rapture," but His Second Coming to the earth (but I disagree that it takes place on RH... so there's that too, lol);

... a few other disagreements.

Again, I endeavor to stick closely to scripture itself (though I do believe scripture itself touches on SOME of what they say/suggest about such)

Again, I believe EVERYTHING from Matthew 24:4 onward (through 2 chpts), is what will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and addresses that which will be the lead up to His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK age (aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES," aka "the meal [G347; Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc; and Matt8:11 and its parallel... and MANY other passages in the gospels...)

I agree. Thank you sir. You couldn't get much closer to how I believe this plays out.

selahsays · Dec 20, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

Indeed. While not everyone will experience the first resurrection, EVERYONE will be changed.
The condition of your soul has nothing to do with the change from your physical body to your new spiritual or incorruptible one. If you were lost before, you will remain lost; if you are under the blood of Jesus Christ, you will remain in the same spiritual condition. All flesh will be destroyed at the blowing of the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.

Magenta · Dec 20, 2023

selahsays said:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 plus 1 Thessalonians 4:14

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

10-22-27 said:

To go along with what I put in my last post (to this point), notice the Lk12:36-37,38,40 (etc) passage ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [as ALREADY-WED]), this entire passage parallels that of Matt24:42-51 (again, speaking of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH);

Then chpt 25 (v.1), which follows on in the text, its first word is "THEN [AT THAT TIME]"... the time-slot just having been covered in 24:42-51 [and more]--events surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (just as Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48), NOT the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," see. = )

[Matt24:4-onward, through chpt 25, is ALL covering the Subject of His RETURN to the earth FOR the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* MK age (and the immediate 'lead-up' to THAT, aka the 7-yr Trib)--NOTHING about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Jesus is not covering THAT Subject here in the Olivet Discourse, anywhere]

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

10-22-27 said:

It is the "weapons-burning" thing (alone) that takes "7 YEARS" (Ezek39:9-10);

whereas the matter regarding "cleanse the land" and the "burying [of the dead bodies]" only occurs within a "7 MONTHS" period of time (Ezek39:12,14,16);

many people do tend to "conflate" these, so you're not alone in that thought (just... incorrect, as they are

)

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

Kroogz said:

Glad to know it, thank you for sharing your close agreement in this.

Nice to hear!

studentoftheword · Dec 20, 2023

Adstar said:

Wrong ---the rapture is separate from the second Coming ------Nothing needs to happen for the Rapture to take place ------what was needed for the Rapture to take place was already accomplished by Jesus when He defeated death and was -resurrected ----Jesus die and was resurrected ----and that was necessary for the Rapture to happen -----and that means the Rapture can happen anytime ------------Christ--ians are to be ready for it ----The Rapture is imminent -----The Second Coming comes after the 7 year Tribulation ----2 Separate events

This in Luke 12 says -------you don't know the day or the hour when Jesus is coming ------He comes when you don't anticipate it -----it is sudden and unexpected ------

This is unlike the Second Coming which is known and anticipated at the end of the Tribulation ----Jesus comes from heaven with His Saints to set up His Earthly Kingdom -----and separate the sheep from the goats ----

Luke 12:40

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour and a [a]moment when you do not anticipate it.

Read all for yourselves
https://bible.org/seriespage/when-christ-comes-church

Not revealed in the Old Testament is the prediction of Christ that He would come and take His disciples to heaven. This was included in His Upper Room Discourse in John 14:3, where Christ said, “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.”

Though some people try to harmonize this with the doctrine of the Second Coming, it is actually a different event because here believers will be taken from earth to heaven, whereas in the Second Coming, Christ will come from heaven to earth to remain in the earth to set up His kingdom.

2 Separate Events -----

from Google
Will Christ return with his saints?

He will rapture His Church prior to the seven years of tribulation, and at the end of the tribulation Christ will return with His saints to establish His thousand-year reign on the earth (I Thessalonians 4:13-18; Titus 2:13; I Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 3:10; Zechariah 14:4-11; Revelation 19:11-16, 20:1-6; Psalm 89 ...

2 Separate Events -------

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

10-22-27 said:

I don't disagree.

But they "come to faith" (in Christ) prior to Christ's Second Coming to the earth (i.e. IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs, they come to faith in Christ); only "believers / saints / the righteous / the WISE [see also Dan12:3,10a] / the BLESSED" will be permitted ENTRANCE into the MK age (the "still-living/alive" ones will enter in their mortal bodies...; I believe Dan7:22 / Rev20:4a speaks to these "still-living" ones [v.4b speaking of the ones needing to be "resurrected" b/c they had been killed/martyred, same time-period])

I don't disagree.

I just think that "the 12"--"judgING the 12 tribes OF ISRAEL" in the MK age--doesn't necessitate that those later (in the MK) BORN TO the saved-mortal-believing remnant of Israel [Rev12:17's "remnant of her seed"] who will enter the MK age... the ones later BORN to them (and grandchildren and so on) [are not] "born automatically righteous"... I'm not writing this clearly, I know... but these born later (in MK age) are among those being the subjects of their ["the 12's" role of] "judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" too, in the MK age! (make sense?

)

Agree.

But... so?

[I am one who does not see this "Gog and Magog" event in Rev20 to be the same as that in Ezek38-39, fwiw... at least 1000 yrs separates the two]

Kroogz · Dec 20, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I don't disagree.

But they "come to faith" (in Christ) prior to Christ's Second Coming to the earth (i.e. IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs, they come to faith in Christ); only "believers / saints / the righteous / the WISE [see also Dan12:3,10a] / the BLESSED" will be permitted ENTRANCE into the MK age (the "still-living/alive" ones will enter in their mortal bodies...; I believe Dan7:22 / Rev20:4a speaks to these "still-living" ones [v.4b speaking of the ones needing to be "resurrected" b/c they had been killed/martyred, same time-period])

I don't disagree.

I just think that "the 12"--"judgING the 12 tribes OF ISRAEL" in the MK age--doesn't necessitate that those later (in the MK) BORN TO the saved-mortal-believing remnant of Israel [Rev12:17's "remnant of her seed"] who will enter the MK age... the ones later BORN to them (and grandchildren and so on) [are not] "born automatically righteous"... I'm not writing this clearly, I know... but these born later (in MK age) are among those being the subjects of their ["the 12's" role of] "judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" too, in the MK age! (make sense?

)

Agree.

But... so?

[I am one who does not see this "Gog and Magog" event in Rev20 to be the same as that in Ezek38-39, fwiw... at least 1000 yrs separates the two]

I kinda glossed over your previous posts on this subject. So I went back to re-read them.(to be honest they are kind of hard to follow)

You're not close to how I see it. You are spot on to how I see it. Keep preachen it brother.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 20, 2023

^ @Kroogz ,

PTL! It's a MIRACLE!

lol

Thank you for letting me know! I appreciate that!

uncle_mike · Dec 20, 2023

Kroogz said:

The Jewish weddings is a good place to start, but look at their harvest seasons. <Matthew 24> Jesus spoke about the harvest, the gathering. Said hope our flight is not in winter. No harvest in winter. Only death in winter. Jesus spoke about the gathering of the Grapes, separating the chaff from the wheat, removing the tares. That is all harvest seasons.

Hay, wait for me.

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