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10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
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#1
A little over a month ago, this lady (Sarah) asked me, “If a person is a Christian but does not believe in the catching away of the church, but there is, will they be caught up with the others?” I told her, “Sarah, you have asked one of the most challenging questions anyone can ask. I’ll do my best to answer it: ‘We are saved by faith,’ we can all agree on that. Concerning your question, two other questions will first have to be asked and then answered. First, what is faith? Secondly, how much faith is needed?

The rest of my conversation with her went something like this. I said, “Saving faith would include trust, sincerity, mercy, full assurance, hope, nothing doubted, good works, zeal, consistency, and confidence. We have to have faith in the Word, in the Father, in Christ, and trust in the Holy Spirit.

Faith is to believe that God is and that all his words are true. Take note of the word ‘all,’ not some or almost all. Certain declarations may have been declared in the past but may also refer to the present and the future, all being revelations and promises from God. In these things, Christians must trust God.

Paul was declared an apostle of Jesus Christ. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:31 around 55 A.D., twenty-four years after the cross. “I show you a mystery.”

This thing Paul was about to reveal to the Corinthian church was unknown, not evident, and far above human insight. Even the apostles were in the dark concerning the Rapture. But the time came for the Holy Spirit to reveal this mystery to Paul, who would then show it to the church. We will not find this doctrine in any of the four gospels; it is only in Paul’s writing.

Paul also wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14, ‘The natural man (the unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.’

Noah’s faith in God may be a good lesson for us to review. Hebrews 11:7, ‘By faith, Noah, was warned of God of things not seen as yet, (so he) moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house (his family);’

In Noah’s day, God had determined to punish the evil cultivated and performed by men. The LORD instructed Noah, who believed and was “moved with fear.” Noah’s action resulted from his faith in the LORD. His emotions and actions correspond to the object of his belief, demonstrating the reality of his faith. One hundred and twenty years later, the words the LORD spoke to Noah came to pass. Now, ask yourself, would your patience and faithfulness have been strong enough to wait 120 years? Or would you have put your tools away after five or ten years and continued your daily routine? If so, you would have been one of the casualties of the flood.

Paul wrote, ‘All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.” It’s not some or part, but all. No man can ever say they know and understand everything in Scripture. As for the things not understood, that’s where saving faith comes in.

The apostle Peter commented on Paul’s Epistles in 2 Peter 3:15-16. He said that the Lord revealed certain mysteries to Paul. He wrote, ‘Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; as also in his (Paul’s) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which some things are hard to understand.’

One of those hard-to-understand mysteries was the catching away of the bride of Christ. Peter had declared that Paul had an uncommon measure of wisdom given to him by the Lord, obscure things, things not easily understood. And because they are hard to understand and believe, those who lack true faith will torture and twist God’s words or reject them outwardly.

Now, to answer Sarah’s question. There will be no signs or warnings; being prepared is what Jesus expects from us. But for those who ‘are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,’ Jesus said, ‘I will spit (vomit) you out of my mouth.’ These words should answer the question, ‘If you don’t believe in the pre-trib-rapture, or don’t believe in the rapture at all, will they be raised up into heaven with the others who believe in the rapture?’

How many Christians have become trapped in denominational teachings, having forgotten how to think for themselves? They have more faith in men and the things of this world than they have in God’s Word.

Paul also wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, in 52 A.D., ‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.’

Paul could not have said it any more straightforward than that. There is a catching away of the bride of Christ. There is no way the Lord would even consider leaving his bride in the hands of the antichrist. Now let’s flip this coin over to its other side.

The tribulation will be a violent period, and those who enter will have to save themselves. There is no, ‘By faith are you saved;’ once they enter the tribulation period. They are given two choices: receive the beast’s mark, worship his image, and live, but later, judged. Their end, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire; this is the second death,” Revelation 20:14.

Or they will reject the mark, refuse to worship the antichrist image, and be put to death. But these will be raised back to life before the 1000 reign.

Revelation 20:4, John saw, “The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” That’s my understanding of this difficult subject. Your thoughts.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#2
"Your thoughts."

1) Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, when referencing an eschatological salvation [addressed to "the Church which is His body" / us / believers in "this present age [singular]"]:
"Who died for us, THAT, whether we might watch [G1127; same Grk word and meaning as in v.6] or whether we might sleep [G2518; same Grk word and meaning as in v.6 (i.e. distinct in meaning from the 'sleep [G2837]' spoken of in the previous chpt, vv.13,14,15 regarding 'the DEAD in Christ'); this 'sleep [G2518]' in 1Th5:10 being contrasted with 'watch-fulness' (see v.6, per context)] we [the Church which is His body] should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"--that is, 100% of "the Church which is His body," none left out

(see this "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with]" word in 1Th4:17, when we [the ENTIRE "Church which is His body"] will be "caught up" TO "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" and "SO [in this manner] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"; 3:13 corresponds to this point in the chronology);


2) the "lukewarm" in Rev 3 are not at all attached to Christ; the letters in chpts 2-3 are "to the churchES" (not the identical thing as saying "the Church which is His body");
in the "churchES" there are both saved and unsaved persons [those who come in His name, but are not actually saved / connected to Christ (example: those in Matt7:22-23 to whom Jesus will say "I NEVER knew you"... though they have said "in thy name [we] have done many wonderful works" and "have we not prophesied in thy name"], i.e. not all in "Christendom" are actually saved persons;
He is saying that "hot" or "cold" are POSITIVES (from God's perspective); whereas the "lukewarm" are not at all connected to the Source--as I understand it, these will be "spewed" into the Tribulation period, and are counseled "to buy of [Him] gold TRIED IN THE FIRE" in that time period;


3) I disagree where you say that "those who enter [the Tribulation period] will have to save themselves," as I believe the instruction found in Luke 21:36, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, *THAT* you may be accounted worthy [or some versions say, 'have strength'] to [actively] FLEE OUT-OF all [each and every one of] these things coming to pass [on the earth, during the Trib] and to stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man [His 'second coming to the earth' designation, to judge and to reign]";
Matt25:31-end describing the evidence of those having faith in Christ DURING the Trib yrs, being evidenced by means of their aiding ['blessing'] "the least of these My brethren" [the believing remnant of Israel in the Trib yrs] even though they don't realize that Christ considers this as their having "done it unto Me" (similar to Paul's revelation via Jesus' words to Paul in Acts 9:5, but in a negative sense there)--hope that makes sense;
IOW, their faith (in Christ) will evidence itself in specific ways (during the Trib yrs), "bless" rather than "[to] curse," but it is Christ who saves;
In another passage, where it states, "he that endureth / endures unto the end, the same shall be saved" I believe speaks to those who will live / remain alive clear to the END of the Trib yrs, and [as 'saints'/'believers'] will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (but whom Jesus stated in Jn 11:26 "[...AND he that LIVETH and believeth in Me] SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"--Context: speaking of "the last day" aka the 7th Millennium / MK age, which Jesus (Who IS / I AM "The Resurrection" AND "The LIFE") will be present and ruling, ensuring this). These will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children (their offspring are not "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS"... these born to them will be the only ones susceptible to "death" in and during the MK age--"death" will be much more rare, reserved only for the rebellious [/unsaved]... and will be dealt with swiftly in that "rule"/governing); All that to say, NOT ALL "saints / believers" existing IN / DURING the Trib yrs will be killed / die... SOME will make it clear to the END, ALIVE, to ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (the ones who DIE / ARE KILLED will be "resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] FOR the MK age--no "saints" will be left out of the MK age





Wow... I didn't mean to write that much! lol

Please let me know if anything I've written here is unclear. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
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#3
Oh, by the way, I neglected to say, Welcome to CC, I see you're fairly new here. Hope to see you around the board. :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#4
These words should answer the question, ‘If you don’t believe in the pre-trib-rapture, or don’t believe in the rapture at all, will they be raised up into heaven with the others who believe in the rapture?
Actually anyone who has been genuinely saved by grace is a child of God, and a part of the Body and Bride of Christ. So doubting the reality of the Rapture (or Pre-Trib Rapture) will not necessarily mean that this person will be left behind. But will they give heed to the admonition to always be ready for Christ to come for His Bride? Only God can answer that question.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
864
346
63
#5
Actually anyone who has been genuinely saved by grace is a child of God, and a part of the Body and Bride of Christ. So doubting the reality of the Rapture (or Pre-Trib Rapture) will not necessarily mean that this person will be left behind. But will they give heed to the admonition to always be ready for Christ to come for His Bride? Only God can answer that question.
I agree. This isn't my quote,I heard it years ago.

For those that didn't believe the pre-trib rapture, we will explain it to them on the way up.:cool:
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,600
3,622
113
#6
A little over a month ago, this lady (Sarah) asked me, “If a person is a Christian but does not believe in the catching away of the church, but there is, will they be caught up with the others?” I told her, “Sarah, you have asked one of the most challenging questions anyone can ask. I’ll do my best to answer it: ‘We are saved by faith,’ we can all agree on that. Concerning your question, two other questions will first have to be asked and then answered. First, what is faith? Secondly, how much faith is needed?

The rest of my conversation with her went something like this. I said, “Saving faith would include trust, sincerity, mercy, full assurance, hope, nothing doubted, good works, zeal, consistency, and confidence.
I disagree.. Faith is trust.. It is trusting God.. The scriptures makes it clear that faith and works are not in the same definition and you putting good works into your definition is in clear opposition to what the scriptures reveal..

(Romans 3:26-28) "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. {27} Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. {28} Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."


We have to have faith in the Word, in the Father, in Christ, and trust in the Holy Spirit.
If one does that they do not include good works in their definition of Faith..

Faith is to believe that God is and that all his words are true.
No Faith is to trust God.. Believing God is to believe God.. two different things..



Paul was declared an apostle of Jesus Christ. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:31 around 55 A.D., twenty-four years after the cross. “I show you a mystery.”

This thing Paul was about to reveal to the Corinthian church was unknown, not evident, and far above human insight. Even the apostles were in the dark concerning the Rapture. But the time came for the Holy Spirit to reveal this mystery to Paul, who would then show it to the church. We will not find this doctrine in any of the four gospels; it is only in Paul’s writing.
The rapture is found in the Gospels.. Matthew 24 gives details of the rapture upon the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus..


Now, to answer Sarah’s question. There will be no signs or warnings; being prepared is what Jesus expects from us. But for those who ‘are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,’ Jesus said, ‘I will spit (vomit) you out of my mouth.’ These words should answer the question, ‘If you don’t believe in the pre-trib-rapture, or don’t believe in the rapture at all, will they be raised up into heaven with the others who believe in the rapture?’
Taking part in the rapture will have Nothing to do with ones personal stance on the raptures timing.. If one is a true follower of the LORD Jesus they shall be caught up on the day of His second coming.. Indeed there are people with a simple faith who probably have no idea there will even be a rapture.. they also will be caught up on that day..


Paul also wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, in 52 A.D., ‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.’
And Paul is correct.. He is describing the second cumming of the LORD Jesus..

Paul could not have said it any more straightforward than that. There is a catching away of the bride of Christ. There is no way the Lord would even consider leaving his bride in the hands of the antichrist.

Yet the Bible clearly reveals that followers of the LORD Jesus will be beheaded for not worshiping the beast or receiving his mark..

(Revelation 20:4) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."


The tribulation will be a violent period, and those who enter will have to save themselves.
No one can save themselves.. Only the LORD Jesus can save us..


There is no, ‘By faith are you saved;’ once they enter the tribulation period. They are given two choices: receive the beast’s mark, worship his image, and live, but later, judged. Their end, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire; this is the second death,” Revelation 20:14.
You read Revelation 20:14.. But seem to somehow totally missed reading Revelation 20:4 ... Or did you just decide to ignore it..


Or they will reject the mark, refuse to worship the antichrist image, and be put to death. But these will be raised back to life before the 1000 reign.

Revelation 20:4, John saw, “The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” That’s my understanding of this difficult subject. Your thoughts.
Let me get this right.. Do you believe that these people will be saved by their works of refusing to worship the image of the beast and refusing to receive the mark of the beast.. If not then you should agree that they will have eternal life with the LORD because they believed The LORD Jesus and trusted in the Atonement He secured for them on the cross.. If you do then should believed that on the day of the rapture that irrespective of their belief in the timing of the Rapture they would have been caught up with the rest of the saved Saints ? Right ?

Or do you believe that the only people who take part in the rapture are people who have the timing correct?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#7
Actually anyone who has been genuinely saved by grace is a child of God, and a part of the Body and Bride of Christ. So doubting the reality of the Rapture (or Pre-Trib Rapture) will not necessarily mean that this person will be left behind.
I agree that no member of the Church which is His body will be left--ALL will experience our Rapture;

however, I HAVE noticed( as I've mentioned in past posts) over the many years of discussion boards that SOME (not all, but SOME) who hold to differing rapture-timing positions (besides pre-trib) ALSO mis-apply many passages, for example, "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," incorrectly thinking this either means "if they don't endure unto the end, they LOSE / FORFEIT their salvation," OR "if they do not endure unto the end, this is PROOF they were never actually saved in the first place" (but again, this is an INCORRECT application of these verses / passages--which contextually pertain to the Tribulation period), and so it AFFECTS / IMPACTS their understanding of Salvation Truths (sometimes knocking it so far out of whack--like ADDING "WORKS" to faith, as in, "faith PLUS [something]" for salvation--that indicates they do not have a correct understanding of salvation-truths, so their "eschatology" would not really matter one whit, if they get the first things [/vital things] wrong. ;) )




[this is all a part of "CORRECTLY APPORTIONING the word of truth" as we are exhorted to do :) ]
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#8
A little over a month ago, this lady (Sarah) asked me, “If a person is a Christian but does not believe in the catching away of the church, but there is, will they be caught up with the others?” I told her, “Sarah, you have asked one of the most challenging questions anyone can ask. I’ll do my best to answer it: ‘We are saved by faith,’ we can all agree on that. Concerning your question, two other questions will first have to be asked and then answered. First, what is faith? Secondly, how much faith is needed?

The rest of my conversation with her went something like this. I said, “Saving faith would include trust, sincerity, mercy, full assurance, hope, nothing doubted, good works, zeal, consistency, and confidence. We have to have faith in the Word, in the Father, in Christ, and trust in the Holy Spirit.

Faith is to believe that God is and that all his words are true. Take note of the word ‘all,’ not some or almost all. Certain declarations may have been declared in the past but may also refer to the present and the future, all being revelations and promises from God. In these things, Christians must trust God.

Paul was declared an apostle of Jesus Christ. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:31 around 55 A.D., twenty-four years after the cross. “I show you a mystery.”

This thing Paul was about to reveal to the Corinthian church was unknown, not evident, and far above human insight. Even the apostles were in the dark concerning the Rapture. But the time came for the Holy Spirit to reveal this mystery to Paul, who would then show it to the church. We will not find this doctrine in any of the four gospels; it is only in Paul’s writing.

Paul also wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14, ‘The natural man (the unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.’

Noah’s faith in God may be a good lesson for us to review. Hebrews 11:7, ‘By faith, Noah, was warned of God of things not seen as yet, (so he) moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house (his family);’

In Noah’s day, God had determined to punish the evil cultivated and performed by men. The LORD instructed Noah, who believed and was “moved with fear.” Noah’s action resulted from his faith in the LORD. His emotions and actions correspond to the object of his belief, demonstrating the reality of his faith. One hundred and twenty years later, the words the LORD spoke to Noah came to pass. Now, ask yourself, would your patience and faithfulness have been strong enough to wait 120 years? Or would you have put your tools away after five or ten years and continued your daily routine? If so, you would have been one of the casualties of the flood.

Paul wrote, ‘All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.” It’s not some or part, but all. No man can ever say they know and understand everything in Scripture. As for the things not understood, that’s where saving faith comes in.

The apostle Peter commented on Paul’s Epistles in 2 Peter 3:15-16. He said that the Lord revealed certain mysteries to Paul. He wrote, ‘Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; as also in his (Paul’s) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which some things are hard to understand.’

One of those hard-to-understand mysteries was the catching away of the bride of Christ. Peter had declared that Paul had an uncommon measure of wisdom given to him by the Lord, obscure things, things not easily understood. And because they are hard to understand and believe, those who lack true faith will torture and twist God’s words or reject them outwardly.

Now, to answer Sarah’s question. There will be no signs or warnings; being prepared is what Jesus expects from us. But for those who ‘are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,’ Jesus said, ‘I will spit (vomit) you out of my mouth.’ These words should answer the question, ‘If you don’t believe in the pre-trib-rapture, or don’t believe in the rapture at all, will they be raised up into heaven with the others who believe in the rapture?’

How many Christians have become trapped in denominational teachings, having forgotten how to think for themselves? They have more faith in men and the things of this world than they have in God’s Word.

Paul also wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, in 52 A.D., ‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.’

Paul could not have said it any more straightforward than that. There is a catching away of the bride of Christ. There is no way the Lord would even consider leaving his bride in the hands of the antichrist. Now let’s flip this coin over to its other side.

The tribulation will be a violent period, and those who enter will have to save themselves. There is no, ‘By faith are you saved;’ once they enter the tribulation period. They are given two choices: receive the beast’s mark, worship his image, and live, but later, judged. Their end, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire; this is the second death,” Revelation 20:14.

Or they will reject the mark, refuse to worship the antichrist image, and be put to death. But these will be raised back to life before the 1000 reign.

Revelation 20:4, John saw, “The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” That’s my understanding of this difficult subject. Your thoughts.
If I understand your long post right, you are saying that you’re not saved if you don’t believe in a pre trib rapture?
So those people that believe and trust in the substitutionary death, and resurrection, of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, yet don’t believe in a pre trib rapture are lost?

I’m a pre or mid tribber, and if that is what you are saying, you are not only wrong, but adding to THE Gospel unto Salvation.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,422
3,679
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#9
How many Christians have become trapped in denominational teachings, having forgotten how to think for themselves?
Yes, there's a danger in idolizing humans and denominational dogma. By the same token, there's danger in putting too much trust in our own thinking.

"Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered." Proverbs 28:26
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#10
I‘m a post-tribber. I believe that the Second Coming of our Messiah happens at the 7th trump, the last trump. Jesus Christ returns after the Antichrist stands in Jerusalem claiming to be God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#11
I‘m a post-tribber. I believe that the Second Coming of our Messiah happens at the 7th trump, the last trump. Jesus Christ returns after the Antichrist stands in Jerusalem claiming to be God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Technically, that would make you a mid tribber. A position I have been more and more leaning toward. There is still 3.5 yrs of GOD'S Wrath (Tribulation) starting right after the AC seats himself in the temple.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#12
Actually anyone who has been genuinely saved by grace is a child of God, and a part of the Body and Bride of Christ. So doubting the reality of the Rapture (or Pre-Trib Rapture) will not necessarily mean that this person will be left behind. But will they give heed to the admonition to always be ready for Christ to come for His Bride? Only God can answer that question.
Hello Nehemiah, good to hear from you, like your post. Matthew 25 may be relevant to this post. "The kingdom of heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom (Jesus when he comes for his bride, the rapture). Five were foolish, they were unprepared. Verse 9, The wise, those prepared said to the unwise, "go you rather to them that sell, and by for yourselves. and while they went to buy the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him (Jesus) to the marriage: and the door was shut."
"The door was shut." Pretty clear, that the Lord's warning to those who are unwise.

So, let's ask the question, "Why were they unwise, why were they unprepared?" Was it their lack of faith, was it their lack of knowledge, their pride or all three. There will be no excuse for not being prepared. There is not a person on this forum that will not have the opportunity to exhaust this subject of rapture and tribulation. The Lord did say, "My people are lost for a lack of knowledge.

To the other posts received concerning this subject:
To many people confuse the coming of the Lord for his bride with his coming in the days of his vengeance. There two separate events, seven years apart.
Once the rapture occurs, the door is shut. We are told there will be a great falling away before the Lord comes for his bride. Those who go into the tribulation will have to take full responsibility for their dilemma. Those who do go into the period called the tribulation, will for 3 1/2 years hear the testimony of the two witnesses, and the 144,000. Their testimony? to finish what the Lord started 2000 years ago before he was cut off at the cross. And after three and a half years when the witnesses are murdered, and the antichrist takes over, they will have to make a decision, receive his mark or reject it. If they reject it, they will be raised, but not taken into heaven with the bride of Christ but will remain on earth and "reign with Christ a thousand years."
That's my understanding, that's one of my timelines. This subject has to be connected to all other end time prophesies. If you let it hang by itself, it won't work. The Lord is not the author of confusion, men are. Your thoughts.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
5,010
2,171
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46
#13
Philip i have one question for you.

After you left the Catholic church because you realized that they are not teaching the truth, you then picked the Bible yourself and learned the truth.
How come this new truth lead you only to understand Salvation or Revelation? Did you learn anything else while reading the Bible yourself besides these two topics?

Thanks.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#14
Philip i have one question for you.

After you left the Catholic church because you realized that they are not teaching the truth, you then picked the Bible yourself and learned the truth.
How come this new truth lead you only to understand Salvation or Revelation? Did you learn anything else while reading the Bible yourself besides these two topics?

Thanks.
I hope after 40 years of study I did. What would you like to talk about? Will be more than happy to discuss any subject with you. You will find me, ------ hmmm, let's say interesting.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
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#15
Yes, there's a danger in idolizing humans and denominational dogma. By the same token, there's danger in putting too much trust in our own thinking.

"Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered." Proverbs 28:26
Yes, there's a danger in idolizing humans and denominational dogma. By the same token, there's danger in putting too much trust in our own thinking.

"Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered." Proverbs 28:26
Yes, there's a danger in idolizing humans and denominational dogma. By the same token, there's danger in putting too much trust in our own thinking.

"Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered." Proverbs 28:26
ResidentAlien, I agree with you, that's the reason I trust only in the Holy Spirit.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
5,010
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#16
I hope after 40 years of study I did. What would you like to talk about? Will be more than happy to discuss any subject with you. You will find me, ------ hmmm, let's say interesting.
Can you give me a review of the Bible if you don't mind?
What are some of the key messages that you take after reading the Bible? One, two or even three essential messages.
 

10-22-27

Active member
Dec 17, 2023
454
141
43
#17
If I understand your long post right, you are saying that you’re not saved if you don’t believe in a pre trib rapture?
So those people that believe and trust in the substitutionary death, and resurrection, of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, yet don’t believe in a pre trib rapture are lost?

I’m a pre or mid tribber, and if that is what you are saying, you are not only wrong, but adding to THE Gospel unto Salvation.
Sorry you misunderstood my post. I will never judge anyone, that's the Lord's work. I was questioning the amount of faith a person has in the things of God. Are we as Christians allowed to pick and choose? are we allowed to agree with this, but not that? I've been dealing with the cults for years, the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and a host of others. What I find interesting, they all call themselves Christians. We do have the right to challenge false teachings, not judge people. The Witnesses say Jesus is not God but a god, do we have the right to challenge that doctrine? Of course, we do! Morman's say the Father had sex with angles, walla men are born. The Pope said it's OK to bless same sex marriage, or something like that, can we challenge that? My posts are for the exchange of ideas, not argument. I enjoy talking to people, and even at 86 try to keep an open mind. Make a reasonable statement, and I will consider it. 10-22-27
 

achduke7

Active member
Oct 3, 2023
102
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#18
...

Paul was declared an apostle of Jesus Christ. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:31 around 55 A.D., twenty-four years after the cross. “I show you a mystery.”

...
Hi,


What was the mystery in 1 Cor 15:31? This part is not the rapture/harpazo. This is the resurrection which happens in an instance. Even the living are part of the resurrection. The catching away is the harpazo where we are taken to be with Christ. We can tell this is the resurrection because the dead are raised as Christ was raised from the dead.

1 Cor 15:31 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If you look at the context above you can clearly see it is the resurrection. This is the same resurrection Christ and the apostles including Paul talked about throughout the New Testament.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
 
Dec 14, 2023
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#19
Some people read the sea of glass, who are the beheaded, and perceive this was a rapture event. The Rapture will actually take place not too much before the beheading begins. The beheaded are just being rapture'd individually as they are killed. But there will be so many of them John describes them as this sea of glass. Then when Jesus returns, He will gather the rest who are alive and hiding. The Jews and those who come to Christ from the 144k preaching.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
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#20
Hi,


What was the mystery in 1 Cor 15:31? This part is not the rapture/harpazo. This is the resurrection which happens in an instance. Even the living are part of the resurrection. The catching away is the harpazo where we are taken to be with Christ. We can tell this is the resurrection because the dead are raised as Christ was raised from the dead.

1 Cor 15:31 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If you look at the context above you can clearly see it is the resurrection. This is the same resurrection Christ and the apostles including Paul talked about throughout the New Testament.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Hi. :)
I believe that at the 7th trump, Jesus returns and in a twinkling of an eye, we will all be changed into spiritual bodies. At this time, a whole bunch of folks will experience the first resurrection—but not everybody.

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.