Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

[mailmandan]

Beckworth said: Saved by BAPTISM, 1 Peter 3:21,

Only in a formal sense. That is, it manifests in ceremony that which really does procure salvation. It declares by a means of physical likeness that which redeems. Keep reading - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Peter guards against giving saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

Saved by GRACE, Ephesians 2:8,

Grace (God's unmerited favor) is God's part, and faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is our part. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Saved by HOPE, Romans 8:24

Biblical hope is not a cross your fingers kind of hope. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Jesus Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7) You can't have one without the other. Hope (just like trust) is an aspect of faith and is not an additional requirement for salvation.

Saved by MERCY, Titus 3:5

Mercy is God's part and is contrasted with not being saved by works of righteousness which we have done. God’s mercy not only forgives but also withholds the punishment we deserve.

Saved by the NAME OF JESUS,

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Saved by continuing in the DOCTRINE, 1 Tim 4:16

We are not passive in persevering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we persevere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perseverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well. If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

Saved by the BLOOD of CHRIST, Col. 1:14

Through His blood is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16)

 

[mailmandan]

Beckworth said: It’s not unusual or unbiblical to be saved by more than one thing.

Just because more than one thing is involved in salvation on God's part and on our part does not mean we are not saved the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9) If you want to get technical, you left out we must first hear the word (Romans 10:17) before we can repent (change our mind) and place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

That’s what the Holy Spirit teaches.

Yet unlike the Holy Spirit, through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, folks who teach salvation by works arrive at their own personal eisegesis.

In fact, the Holy Spirit often names two different acts when answering the question about “WHAT TO DO TO BE SAVED. Look at Mark 16:16 - “ He that BELIEVES (1) and is BAPTIZED (2) SHALL BE SAVED. Clearly, He puts salvation AFTER Baptism and faith, making it at least 2 different things that save us.

The Holy Spirit clarifies the first clause with the second. ..but he who does not believe shall be condemned. Also, in numerous other passages of scripture, the Holy Spirit connects salvation with BELIEVES with not mention of baptism. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). If he who believes shall be saved, then he who believes and is baptized shall be saved as well, yet NOWHERE does the Bible teach baptized or condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also, Acts 2:38 - “REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED …and you shall receive forgiveness of sins. Again, the Spirit gives TWO things necessary for the forgiveness of sins—not just one thing.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism.

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism? You may ask, what happened to faith? Well, it does not need to be mentioned because it's already implied or assumed since repentance and belief/faith are two sides to the same coin. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) *Hermeneutics.

Roman’s 10:9-10 also gives TWO things that save us—belief and confession.

Not as two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. (Romans 10:8)

The doctrine of Christ has never said or taught that salvation is “ONLY” by one thing; and certainly not by faith only, as James 2:24 plainly says.

The fact that we are saved the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation does not negate grace, mercy, the blood of Christ etc.. on God's part and it also does not mean that we have faith, but we never repented or that the word of faith is in our heart but not in our mouth. (water baptism follows salvation through faith) Also, don't confuse "faith only" per James 2:24 - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. Romans 4:6 - God imputes righteousness apart from works. Ephesians 2:8 - Saved by grace through faith, not works.

Now I do understand your confusion. Been there, done that. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church which taught salvation by faith + works and that church would agree with your arguments above and I had also temporarily attended the church of Christ who also teach salvation by faith + works so I have heard just about every argument under the sun that supports salvation by faith + works and rejects salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. Until the veil is lifted, you won't understand.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Just because more than one thing is involved in salvation on God's part and on our part does not mean we are not saved the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9) If you want to get technical, you left out we must first hear the word (Romans 10:17) before we can repent (change our mind) and place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
.

We are justified the moment we believe in Jesus Christ, but we are saved through obedience. Not by obedience; through obedience

 

[mailmandan]

We are justified the moment we believe in Jesus Christ, but we are saved through obedience. Not by obedience; through obedience

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

If we are justified by faith, then we are saved. Elsewhere we read saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) I see that you also "add" obedience to justification/salvation through faith. So please explain to me, just how much obedience does it take to be saved? How much obedience must we accomplish and "add" to salvation through faith before we can be saved?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If we are justified by faith, then we are saved. Elsewhere we read saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

Justification is just the first step. We are not fully saved until the resurrection when we receive incorruptible bodies.

Jesus asked those who thought they are saved why they called him lord, but don't do what he said.

And in another place said those who don't do God's will will not enter his kingdom.

And in another place describes calling those who think they are saved workers of iniquity and tells them to depart from him.

So justification is just the first step. We are not saved by obedience, we are saved by Jesus' blood. But we continue to partake of that salvation through obedience.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If we are justified by faith, then we are saved. Elsewhere we read saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) I see that you also "add" obedience to justification/salvation through faith. So please explain to me, just how much obedience does it take to be saved? How much obedience must we accomplish and "add" to salvation through faith before we can be saved?

It's not a matter of how much obedience is required; that would be salvation by obedience, which is not what I'm saying. It's a matter of how long obedience is required, which is a lifetime. That is salvation through obedience to God's voice. Saying obeying what the lord says is not necessary for salvation is just ridiculous.

 

[NightTwister]

It's not a matter of how much obedience is required; that would be salvation by obedience, which is not what I'm saying. It's a matter of how long obedience is required, which is a lifetime. That is salvation through obedience to God's voice. Saying obeying what the lord says is not necessary for salvation is just ridiculous.

Keep working, maybe you'll get there eventually.

 

[mailmandan]

Justification is just the first step. We are not fully saved until the resurrection when we receive incorruptible bodies.

Justification is saved from the PENALTY of sin. Fully saved is being saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Jesus asked those who thought they are saved why they called him lord, but don't do what he said.

In Luke chapter 6, Jesus starts by rebuking the Pharisees and just before we get to verse 46 (which you cited) we read: 43 No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. Indeed, figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor grapes from brambles. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good treasure of his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil treasure of his heart. For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. Jesus contrasts good men with evil men.

And in another place said those who don't do God's will will not enter his kingdom.

We can see that seeking salvation by works is not God's will. (Matthew 7:22-23) In John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Those many people in Matthew 7:22 were not genuine believers. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. In context, Jesus is discussing false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23)

And in another place describes calling those who think they are saved workers of iniquity and tells them to depart from him.

Apart from saving faith in Christ, imputed righteousness and the blood of Christ to wash away our sins, in the eyes of God we are workers of iniquity because our sin remains.

So justification is just the first step.

First step to what? Probation? Justification is salvation from the PENALTY of sin.

We are not saved by obedience, we are saved by Jesus' blood. But we continue to partake of that salvation through obedience.

Oxymoron. That is "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door and not salvation through faith. From beginning "have been" saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

 

[mailmandan]

It's not a matter of how much obedience is required; that would be salvation by obedience, which is not what I'm saying. It's a matter of how long obedience is required, which is a lifetime. That is salvation through obedience to God's voice. Saying obeying what the lord says is not necessary for salvation is just ridiculous.

It's salvation through obedience/works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. There is a difference between obeying what the Lord said in order to obtain salvation (John 6:40) and obeying what the Lord said after salvation. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It's salvation through obedience/works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. There is a difference between obeying what the Lord said in order to obtain salvation (John 6:40) and obeying what the Lord said after salvation. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

Per 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18, praying without ceasing is works. Not repaying anyone evil for evil, but seeking to do good to one another and to everyone is works. Admonishing the idle, encouraging the fainthearted, helping the weak and being patient with all is works.

 

[mailmandan]

Per 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18, praying without ceasing is works. Not repaying anyone evil for evil, but seeking to do good to one another and to everyone is works. Admonishing the idle, encouraging the fainthearted, helping the weak and being patient with all is works.

Yes, all works and guess what - (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[Beckworth]

It's not about lowering certain scriptures to a lower position. It's about properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

Hmm.. most church of Christ folks place repent "before" confess your belief in their 4 step plan of salvation and also, repent actually "precedes" saving belief (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and water baptism "follows" saving belief. (Acts 10:43-47)

Now I personally have repented, and I believe the gospel, and I have confessed Christ upon and after conversion and I have been water baptized. So, even according to your gospel, I'm saved. Now according to you, what am I disregarding or lacking?

Since I know you believe in faith alone for salvation, ( from reading your other posts), I m sure you do not agree with Peter in Acts 2:38 when he told those people to“repent” to be saved ( what must we do, verse 37), nor did you “confess” unto salvation as Paul says to do in Roman’s 10:10; since you believe you were already saved before confessing. And just as baptism would not save an infidel who does not believe in Jesus, even so, baptism did not save you because you, like the infidel do not believe in Christ when He tells you that baptism saves, 1 Peter 3:21, and Mark 16:16, forgives sins, Actsc2:38, and washes away sins, Acts 22:16. So, the only thing that I can see, that baptism did for you, besides getting you wet, was to put you in the Baptist church (and where is THAT in the Bible?).

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Wouldn't it be easier to just get water baptized instead of spending so much time fretting about whether it's necessary or not? Get it done

I Agree, and I did. It changed NOTHING, but it did feel like "obedience".

 

[Beckworth]

It was simple for these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 who believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism, which was my experience as well, minus speaking in tongues, which had its purpose in that situation and was the exception but not the rule for all.

There is no evidence from the scripture in Acts 10 that Cornelius and his house were saved before baptism. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was never for the purpose of saving anyone, but was a “sign” used to convince the Jews that 1) What the apostles were preaching was truly from God in Acts 2, when it fell on the apostles, and 2) that the gentiles were the recipients of the kingdom of God and the gospel just as the Jews were in Acts 2. when it fell on Cornelius and his house in Acts 10. In fact, in chapter 11, it was that very fact ( the outpouring of the H.S.) that convinced the Jews who questioned Peter about going into a gentile home. In verse 17 of Acts 11, Paul told them how God gave the gentiles the same “gift” ( of the Spirit) “as He gave us at the beginning ( Acts 2), and they said, “ THEN God has also given to the gentiles repentance to life!” They were convinced when they heard that the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit. It was used as a “SIGN” to the Jews. There is nothing in either one of those scriptures that even indicate receiving the Holy Spirit saves people. Which is exactly why, in Acts 10, after receiving the Spirit, Peter COMMANDS them to be (water) baptized-as Peter has ALREADY testified—for the forgiveness of sins. ( Acts 2:38).
if Cornelius was saved before baptism in Acts 10, then Peter lied in Acts 3:38. Those scriptures do not harmonize.

Receiving the Holy Spirit did not save any of the saved people of Samaria in Acts 8 because the Spirit testifies that they were saved in verse 12 but they did not receive the Holy Spirit until verse 17, after they had to wait on Peter and John to come down there from Jerusalem to give it to them by laying their hands on them. So, I challenge you to prove by SCRIPTURE, not human reasoning, that the Holy Spirit was given for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Since I know you believe in faith alone for salvation, ( from reading your other posts), I'm sure you do not agree with Peter in Acts 2:38 when he told those people to “repent” to be saved (what must we do, verse 37), nor did you “confess” unto salvation as Paul says to do in Romans 10:10; since you believe you were already saved before confessing.

I believe in faith IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE for salvation which means we are trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. I agree with Peter that we must first repent (change our mind) before we can place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and become saved. Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin so whenever only one is mentioned in scripture in regard to salvation the other is implied or assumed.

The moment I was saved, I not only believed unto righteousness but immediately raised my hands in the air praising Jesus as Lord and thanking Him for saving me. Praise God! Confession is a confirmation of faith and is not a work for salvation. Simply believing in your head and not in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead is not unto righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit as a work for salvation is not unto salvation.

And just as baptism would not save an infidel who does not believe in Jesus, even so, baptism did not save you because you, like the infidel do not believe in Christ when He tells you that baptism saves, 1 Peter 3:21, and Mark 16:16, forgives sins, Actsc2:38, and washes away sins, Acts 22:16.

Sadly, there are many folks who do not believe in Jesus unto salvation yet get water baptized anyway because they are trusting in baptism for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Water baptism did not literally save me but Jesus did.

Now I already thoroughly covered 1 Peter 3:21 with you in post #41 and Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 with you in post #42. You need to read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, instead of hanging your hat on only part or half of one verse. In regard to Acts 22:16, baptism does not literally wash away sins, so we must take it as representatively or figuratively.

*Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

Remission of Sins has three applications:

1. Literally, by the death of Christ - Matthew 26:26-28

2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 10:43

3. Ceremonially, by baptism - Acts 22:16

So, the only thing that I can see, that baptism did for you, besides getting you wet, was to put you in the Baptist church (and where is THAT in the Bible?).

LOL! Put me in the Baptist church? The modern day "church of Christ" seems to believe their church is in the Bible and is the true church simply based on their name from reading Romans 16:16. I wonder if the modern day church that goes by the name "church of God" uses that same logic simply based on their name. (Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 1122) If you have not believed in Jesus Christ unto salvation (John 3:18) then the only thing baptism did for you was get you wet and turn you into you Campbellite.

 

[mailmandan]

There is no evidence from the scripture in Acts 10 that Cornelius and his house were saved before baptism.

Cornelius and his house believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit see Acts 10:45 (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and spoke in tongues, which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and were clearly saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) The evidence is overwhelming! You simply refuse to see it because of your biased church doctrine.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was never for the purpose of saving anyone, but was a “sign” used to convince the Jews that 1) What the apostles were preaching was truly from God in Acts 2, when it fell on the apostles, and 2) that the gentiles were the recipients of the kingdom of God and the gospel just as the Jews were in Acts 2. when it fell on Cornelius and his house in Acts 10. In fact, in chapter 11, it was that very fact ( the outpouring of the H.S.) that convinced the Jews who questioned Peter about going into a gentile home. In verse 17 of Acts 11, Paul told them how God gave the gentiles the same “gift” ( of the Spirit) “as He gave us at the beginning ( Acts 2), and they said, “ THEN God has also given to the gentiles repentance to life!” They were convinced when they heard that the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit. It was used as a “SIGN” to the Jews.

Speaking in tongues was a sign for the Jews that these Gentiles had received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were accepted by God and saved.

There is nothing in either one of those scriptures that even indicate receiving the Holy Spirit saves people.

Only saved people receive the Holy Spirit.

Which is exactly why, in Acts 10, after receiving the Spirit, Peter COMMANDS them to be (water) baptized-as Peter has ALREADY testified—for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38).

Compare Acts 2:38 with (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:18; 5:31) and see that repentance (faith implied or assumed - Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) is connected with the remission of sins. Peter already testified in Acts 10:43 that whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

if Cornelius was saved before baptism in Acts 10, then Peter lied in Acts 2:38. Those scriptures do not harmonize.

Peter did not lie in Acts 2:38 or Acts 10:43-47. You simply misinterpreted Acts 2:38 and now you are forced to try and make Acts 10:43-47 "conform" to your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38.

Receiving the Holy Spirit did not save any of the saved people of Samaria in Acts 8 because the Spirit testifies that they were saved in verse 12 but they did not receive the Holy Spirit until verse 17, after they had to wait on Peter and John to come down there from Jerusalem to give it to them by laying their hands on them. So, I challenge you to prove by SCRIPTURE, not human reasoning, that the Holy Spirit was given for salvation.

The delaying of receiving the Holy Spirit for these Samaritan believers until the apostles laid hands on them was an exception and not the rule. The Jews were hostile towards the Samaritans and the laying on of hands by the apostles would authenticate God's purpose and promote church unity. Believers were saved prior to receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit prior to Jesus being glorified (John 3:16,18; 7:38-39) and the same can be said of these Samaritan believers in this unique situation in Acts 8.

 

[Cameron143]

Cornelius and his house believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit see Acts 10:45 (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and spoke in tongues, which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and were clearly saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) The evidence is overwhelming! You simply refuse to see it because of your biased church doctrine.

Speaking in tongues was a sign for the Jews that these Gentiles had received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were accepted by God and saved.

Only saved people receive the Holy Spirit.

Compare Acts 2:38 with (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:18; 5:31) and see that repentance (faith implied or assumed - Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) is connected with the remission of sins. Peter already testified in Acts 10:43 that whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

Peter did not lie in Acts 2:38 or Acts 10:43-47. You simply misinterpreted Acts 2:38 and now you are forced to try and make Acts 10:43-47 "conform" to your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38.


The delaying of receiving the Holy Spirit for these Samaritan believers until the apostles laid hands on them was an exception and not the rule. The Jews were hostile towards the Samaritans and the laying on of hands by the apostles would authenticate God's purpose and promote church unity. Believers were saved prior to receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit prior to Jesus being glorified (John 3:16,18; 7:38-39) and the same can be said of these Samaritan believers in this unique situation in Acts 8.

1 Corinthians 12:3 says no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9 says no one belongs to Christ apart from having the Spirit.

Throughout the book of Acts, beginning with Pentecost, the falling of the Spirit upon individuals and groups is not the indwelling of the Spirit. It is the baptism with the Spirit that the Father promised in Joel and was spoken of by Jesus in Acts 1 that His disciples were to wait for. It was also prophesied by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11. It is experiential and outwardly recognizable. In contrast, the indwelling of the Spirit or baptism by the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is nonexperiential and not outwardly recognizable.

 

[Hakawaka]

Wouldn't it be easier to just get water baptized instead of spending so much time fretting about whether it's necessary or not? Get it done and you don't have to think about it for the rest of your life. It obviously had great importance at the beginning and God is obviously pleased with it, so why do people kick against it so much? It's not something someone would regret doing.

This is exactly what I always say, and this is precisely why the Scriptures link faith and baptism in mark 16:16 and elsewhere.

Because repentance, faith/belief, water baptism. Its all connected in the Scriptures because that is what happened. Someone repented, believed and was water baptized. They didn't think about it cause there was no need to. They just lived their Christian life.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 12:3 says no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9 says no one belongs to Christ apart from having the Spirit.

Throughout the book of Acts, beginning with Pentecost, the falling of the Spirit upon individuals and groups is not the indwelling of the Spirit. It is the baptism with the Spirit that the Father promised in Joel and was spoken of by Jesus in Acts 1 that His disciples were to wait for. It was also prophesied by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11. It is experiential and outwardly recognizable. In contrast, the indwelling of the Spirit or baptism by the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is nonexperiential and not outwardly recognizable.

the indwelling of the Spirit or baptism by the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is nonexperiential and not outwardly recognizable...

Just asking about this, dear brother...

Would this be regeneration? Being made alive in Christ?

Ephesians 2 v 4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Cameron143]

the indwelling of the Spirit or baptism by the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is nonexperiential and not outwardly recognizable...

Just asking about this, dear brother...

Would this be regeneration? Being made alive in Christ?

Ephesians 2 v 4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Yes.