Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

[Mwestton]

Daily. Frequently each day. You can never be too sure...

I got this morning a sermon from c.s. Lewis on YouTube. "When people don't listen to you". It explains a lot about how the Lord operates through us. Check it out if ya want. Talks about being uncertain of purpose and things. Every one who is talking on this thread I think it will help. All inquiries I listen. Thanks to you too. Nice Zoro mask dude!

 

[NightTwister]

Nice Zoro mask dude!

Dread Pirate Roberts

 

[mailmandan]

Believing that it's ALL necessary for salvation

So, one must believe in their baptism to save them "in addition" to believing in Christ to save them (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) or else, they won't be saved?

 

[DJT_47]

So, one must believe in their baptism to save them "in addition" to believing in Christ to save them (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) or else, they won't be saved?

It's simple. It's all required

 

[Beckworth]

My only advice is it's another scripture. I forgot exactly where or the whole one. I suggest Google it. A scripture talking about recieving with a noble heart. loyalty. Just trust the holy Spirit it's written he will guide us in all are ways and lead us to all truth. Please don't sweat it. It will mess with you. Proverbs 3:5-6

Could it be Acts 17:11? “These were more NOBLE ( fair-minded) than those in Thessalonica in that they received the word with all readiness and searched the scriptures to see if those things were so.”

 

[NightTwister]

It's simple. It's all required

You're simply wrong.

 

[DJT_47]

You're simply wrong.

Then continue to pick the scripture you like best and ignor the rest

 

[NightTwister]

Then continue to pick the scripture you like best and ignor the rest

I don't ignore any of it. I don't add to it like you do either.

 

[DJT_47]

I don't ignore any of it. I don't add to it like you do either.

Im simply citing scriptures. You're simply citing your own words with no foundation. Goodbye

 

[Ceph]

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 3:19

19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Instead of approaching biblical scripture with wondering how much is true, approach them with the disposition that none of it is a lie.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So, one must believe in their baptism to save them "in addition" to believing in Christ to save them (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) or else, they won't be saved?

It does say he gives the holy spirit to those who obey him, and baptism was a command to obey in order to receive the holy spirit. So it's not believing in baptism, but simply obeying the lord's command

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38​

​

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32​

 

[mailmandan]

It's simple. It's all required

It was simple for these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 who believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism, which was my experience as well, minus speaking in tongues, which had its purpose in that situation and was the exception but not the rule for all.

 

[DJT_47]

It was simple for these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 who believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism, which was my experience as well, minus speaking in tongues, which had its purpose in that situation and was the exception but not the rule for all.

This has been discussed a million times. Acts 2 and Acts 10 are anomalies not the norm. In both cases, the Spirit fell in advance to show God ordained what was happening and in both cases, the church was started first at Jerusalem amongst the Jews, and then in Caesarea amongst the Gentiles. THAT WAS THE REASON, TO SHOW IT WAS GOD'S WILL.

 

[mailmandan]

It does say he gives the holy spirit to those who obey him, and baptism was a command to obey in order to receive the holy spirit. So it's not believing in baptism, but simply obeying the lord's command

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38​

​

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32​

The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16; 1:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience (works) which "follow" AFTER one believes and is saved.

In regard to Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

In Acts 10:43, we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So, the only Biblical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

This has been discussed a million times. Acts 2 and Acts 10 are anomalies not the norm. In both cases, the Spirit fell in advance to show God ordained what was happening and in both cases, the church was started first at Jerusalem amongst the Jews, and then in Caesarea amongst the Gentiles. THAT WAS THE REASON, TO SHOW IT WAS GOD'S WILL.

See post #34.

 

[studentoftheword]

Well first off --no one is saved until they accept God The Father's Drawing to be saved ------

John 6:44
AMPC
No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

Sinners have Hardened hearts toward God ---Sinners will not want to come to God ---so God the Father has to try and draw the person to come to Jesus ----

We Humans has Free will to choose to accept that Draw or Refuse the Draw -----

The Greek word for Draw here

Lexical Summary
haireó: To take, to choose, to prefer
Original Word: αἱρέω

properly, lay hold of by a personal choice.

[The Greek middle voice emphasizes the self-interest of the one preferring (deciding) to grasp or take.]

Topical Lexicon
Overview
Strong’s Greek 138 conveys the idea of making a deliberate, well-considered choice.
Scripture uses the verb both for God’s sovereign election and for thoughtful human decision, highlighting that true choosing is never random but always purposeful and value-laden.

I say ----God knows the Heart of the person and if the Person will accept His drawing ------the hardened heart has to be changed to a responsive heart to receive the Gospel -----

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

I say ---------that is the first step to be saved =====accepting the Father's Drawing ----cause there are many who are still rejecting the Father's drawing -----

God is drawing on people constantly ----and many are refusing to accept His call constantly -----as there are a lot of unbelievers still in this wold -----

One you get your heart fixed -------Then Repentance -comes ---which is a mind change ----saying your a sinner in need of a Saviour -----

Then reading and hearing God's word is required -----which inbirths Saving Faith in you to believe in Jesus who your don't see but you believe with your new a tender, responsive heart.

and do what Romans 10:9 says to do -----and verse 10 explains why 9 is important -----and then you are saved -----

Now this belief is not just a Willy Nelly half witted belief -----Folks

9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

 

[Beckworth]

So, one must believe in their baptism to save them "in addition" to believing in Christ to save them (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) or else, they won't be saved?

Yes, just like you believe you are saved by faith “in ADDITION to” repentance, trust, and grace. Just because you say you are saved by faith, does that mean then that you believe you are NOT saved by grace? Eph. 2:8. The Bible has never taught that we are saved by “only” one thing.

The Bible says we are saved by many different things:
we are saved by faith, yes, Mark 16:16, but the Bible says we are also …
Saved by REPENTANCE, Acts 2:38,
Saved by CONFESSION, Romans 10:19,
Saved by BAPTISM, 1 Peter 3:21,
Saved by GRACE, Ephesians 2:8,
Saved by HOPE, Romans 8:24
Saved by MERCY, Titus 3:5
Saved by the NAME OF JESUS,
Saved by continuing in the DOCTRINE, 1 Tim 4:16
Saved by the BLOOD of CHRIST, Col. 1:14

It’s not unusual or unbiblical to be saved by more than one thing. That’s what the Holy Spirit teaches. In fact, the Holy Spirit often names two different acts when answering the question about “WHAT TO DO TO BE SAVED. Look at Mark 16:16 - “ He that BELIEVES (1) and is BAPTIZED (2) SHALL BE SAVED. Clearly, He puts salvation AFTER Baptism and faith, making it at least 2 different things that save us.
Also, Acts 2:38 - “REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED …and you shall receive forgiveness of sins. Again, the Spirit gives TWO things necessary for the forgiveness of sins—not just one thing. Roman’s 10:9-10 also gives TWO things that save us—belief and confession. The doctrine of Christ has never said or taught that salvation is “ONLY” by one thing; and certainly not by faith only, as James 2:24 plainly says.

 

[Inquisitor]

Hmmm? Paul mentions knowing is not enough. Do not decieve yourselves, be a doer if the word not just a hearer. Think what ya want though. We have free will.i won't debate

I agree.

It's one thing to list a doctrine or two which even AI can do.

It's an entirely different thing to live the Christian life.

Bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Loving others as Christ commanded us.

You will know them by their confession, their fruit, their love.

Is a Christian someone who can quote Romans 10:9-10 or someone who both believes and
has the works?

 

[GWH]

Yes, just like you believe you are saved by faith “in ADDITION to” repentance, trust, and grace. Just because you say you are saved by faith, does that mean then that you believe you are NOT saved by grace? Eph. 2:8. The Bible has never taught that we are saved by “only” one thing.

The Bible says we are saved by many different things:
we are saved by faith, yes, Mark 16:16, but the Bible says we are also …
Saved by REPENTANCE, Acts 2:38,
Saved by CONFESSION, Romans 10:19,
Saved by BAPTISM, 1 Peter 3:21,
Saved by GRACE, Ephesians 2:8,
Saved by HOPE, Romans 8:24
Saved by MERCY, Titus 3:5
Saved by the NAME OF JESUS,
Saved by continuing in the DOCTRINE, 1 Tim 4:16
Saved by the BLOOD of CHRIST, Col. 1:14

It’s not unusual or unbiblical to be saved by more than one thing. That’s what the Holy Spirit teaches. In fact, the Holy Spirit often names two different acts when answering the question about “WHAT TO DO TO BE SAVED. Look at Mark 16:16 - “ He that BELIEVES (1) and is BAPTIZED (2) SHALL BE SAVED. Clearly, He puts salvation AFTER Baptism and faith, making it at least 2 different things that save us.
Also, Acts 2:38 - “REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED …and you shall receive forgiveness of sins. Again, the Spirit gives TWO things necessary for the forgiveness of sins—not just one thing. Roman’s 10:9-10 also gives TWO things that save us—belief and confession. The doctrine of Christ has never said or taught that salvation is “ONLY” by one thing; and certainly not by faith only, as James 2:24 plainly says.

Well, God's one requirement for salvation can be described using many synonyms.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, just like you believe you are saved by faith “in ADDITION to” repentance, trust, and grace.

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. It's not about faith "in addition" to repentance as if repentance is a work for salvation which follows saving faith in Jesus Christ. Faith involves trust, so it's not faith + trust either as if trust is an additional requirement for salvation after faith. Grace is God's unmerited favor. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

Just because you say you are saved by faith, does that mean then that you believe you are NOT saved by grace? Eph. 2:8. The Bible has never taught that we are saved by “only” one thing.

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part. Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone does not mean that faith is the only thing involved as if it's not by God's grace (unmerited favor) in the first place that we are saved through faith or we have faith, but we never repented. It means that we are saved the very moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9) It's still by God's grace (unmerited favor) that we were saved through faith and repentance already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. So, neither grace nor repentance are excluded.

The Bible says we are saved by many different things:
we are saved by faith, yes, Mark 16:16, but the Bible says we are also …

We are not saved by faith + baptism. Otherwise, we would not be saved by faith. Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Saved by REPENTANCE, Acts 2:38,

Because this change of mind culminates in faith. Repentance and faith are inseparable in obtaining salvation. Repentance actually "precedes" believe him/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent and believe the gospel.”

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Saved by CONFESSION, Romans 10:19,

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. So, confession is a confirmation of faith, which is why we will be saved if we confess and is not a work for salvation after one believes unto righteousness.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Lip service confession as a work for salvation does not save.

CONTINUED..