As you can see, the replacement theology crowd went full radio silence on the matter.
They have no substantial rebuttal that is actually Biblically supported.
Basically their position ends up at outright denial or intentional misdirection.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
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They have no substantial rebuttal that is actually Biblically supported.
Basically their position ends up at outright denial or intentional misdirection.
I have never dealt with such hostile people as I have on this subject. And to me it just shows how wrong and far from the truth they are. No other subject here get this type of response. It's almost hysterical! I have made more "enemies" on this subject than any other. And it gets personal. smh Finally someone made them go "radio silence".
people love quoting isaiah up until verse 14, its never quoted. here it is:Game set match friend.....
Isa 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the ***second time*** to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 12:1
And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me.
"But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; Together they shall plunder the people of the East; They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; And the people of Ammon shall obey them. "
i cant wait for judah and ephraim to reunite so they can finally plunder the people of the east and enslave their neighbors.
israel is not the key to bible prophecy, Jesus is. always interpret the old testament thru the new covenant. if you take the old testament as it is, without new covenant enlightenment, you will end up with a kingdom where israel has slaves, they are plundering people, they will have a physical temple with physical sacrifices, marriage and death continue on post- second coming.
its a mad system. completely goes against everything that Jesus and the apostles taught. completely anti-new covenant
This is a forced separation.
Jesus makes it quite simple for his audience... which the same.
Luke ... YOU/YOUR approximately 33 times
Matthew .... YOU/YOUR approximately 21 times.
There is no argument here, that is why there is no point in engaging the argument, you is you, when you see these things, the people in front of HIM!
Until someone can make you not be you what is there to say.
There is not one book in the Bible that was written TO anyone living today. Every single book in the Bible was written FOR us, for application and understanding, but none of them were written TO us. Every book in the bible is a personal letter, a history book, or writing by a prophet to particular people at a particular time and for a particular reason. Yes, we do glean truth and understanding from these books today, but that is far different than saying that these books were written TO us.
Pastor Curtis.
THE END
Very few OT prophecies/promises haven't been fulfilled in Christ. Some obviously won't be fulfilled until Christ returns.
I started a thread to document those that have been fulfilled, and will add more when it is claimed that they haven't been fulfilled and still await fulfillment.
https://christianchat.com/threads/fulfilled-ot-promises-prophecies.221713/
I started a thread to document those that have been fulfilled, and will add more when it is claimed that they haven't been fulfilled and still await fulfillment.
https://christianchat.com/threads/fulfilled-ot-promises-prophecies.221713/
That guy was so confused he didn't know what even he was talking about let alone anybody else.
But yea, I dialogued with him and proved that NO mathematic time constrained prophecy fit 70AD nor 135AD for that matter.
The fact is that Jesus and Paul CLEARLY indicated a "gentile Church gap" between the 69th and 70 week of Daniel.
And that's where we are at now. But not for much longer IMO.....
Well, Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 culminate in the Second Coming.This is a forced separation.
Jesus makes it quite simple for his audience... which the same.
Luke ... YOU/YOUR approximately 33 times
Matthew .... YOU/YOUR approximately 21 times.
There is no argument here, that is why there is no point in engaging the argument, you is you, when you see these things, the people in front of HIM!
Until someone can make you not be you what is there to say.
There is not one book in the Bible that was written TO anyone living today. Every single book in the Bible was written FOR us, for application and understanding, but none of them were written TO us. Every book in the bible is a personal letter, a history book, or writing by a prophet to particular people at a particular time and for a particular reason. Yes, we do glean truth and understanding from these books today, but that is far different than saying that these books were written TO us.
Pastor Curtis.
THE END
Are you actually going to argue that this has already happened?
Many do you know. Crazy right?
Mar 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The preterists and historicists have absolutely nothing going for them. The denial is unreal.
Ok. .. so you cannot explain why you is not you, ....same audience, at least the Calvinists give an attempt to explain why all is not all.
Seems to me it is the futurist who is in denial of the words of Christ Jesus, quite serious I would think.
Anyway moving on, praying Christ Jesus has mercy on you to open your eyes, I am always hopefully.
I just looked it up, preterism, my question...how did I miss the utter destruction of the world like never seen before?
Matthew 24:21 highlights a "great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again". Additionally, 2 Peter 3:10 states the earth and its works will be burned up, with elements melting in intense heat.
Matthew 24:21 highlights a "great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again". Additionally, 2 Peter 3:10 states the earth and its works will be burned up, with elements melting in intense heat.
Sure I can. In fact the Scripture is FILLED with the prophetic "you".
Its not only common, it is absolutely essential to get the message delivered!
************************************************************************************************
In Gospel of Matthew 24, Jesus repeatedly uses “you” while clearly speaking about events that would happen far beyond the lifetime of the disciples. That is not a grammatical mistake — it is a Hebraic prophetic device.
Here is the concise explanation.
The “prophetic you”
In biblical Hebrew and Jewish teaching, prophets often speak to:
the covenant people across time
as if they were one living audience.
This is called corporate or covenantal address.
Israel (and later, the Church) is treated as a single continuing person through history.
So when Jesus says:
“When you see these things…”
“They will deliver you up…”
“When you see the abomination…”
“They will deliver you up…”
“When you see the abomination…”
He is not saying Peter, James, and John personally live to the Second Coming.
He is saying:
“When My covenant people who stand in your place in the future see this…”
Why Jesus spoke this way
Jesus is speaking as:
- a Jewish prophet
- a covenant head
- and the Messiah
He is using the same voice Moses and Isaiah used.
Moses said:
“When you are scattered among the nations…”
to people who had never left Sinai.
to people who had never left Sinai.
Isaiah said:
“When you return to the land…”
to people who were about to be exiled.
to people who were about to be exiled.
Same grammar. Same prophetic style.
Why this proves Matthew 24 is future
If Jesus meant only 70 AD, the “you” would refer to the apostles.
But He includes:
- global signs
- all tribes of the earth
- cosmic disturbances
- His visible return
Those did not occur in the first century.
So “you” must mean:
Israel and Christ’s followers alive at the end of the age.
It's not talking about the world itself physically, but the ramifications of the cross on all things, both seen and unseen.
What changed as a result of the cross? Think big.
How about think Biblically, in terms of the intended nuts and bolts reality?
Rather than dizzy vapid biblically illiterate fantasy?
Succinct, crisp, nonarbitrary, concise. That is how the Bible eschatological outcomes are written.
If you care to read and understand it. If you don't anything goes.
What today is called preterism (the idea that most or all biblical prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, especially in 70 AD) does not come from the apostles or the early Church. It emerges much later, and for a very specific historical reason.
Here is the timeline.
1. The Apostolic & Early Church view (AD 30–300)
The earliest Christians were:
- Jewish
- millenarian (believed in a future earthly kingdom)
- expected Israel’s restoration
- expected Christ’s physical return
This view is called chiliasm (from Greek chilioi = thousand).
It is found in:
- Papias (c. 90–130)
- Justin Martyr
- Irenaeus
- Tertullian
They all expected:
- Antichrist
- Great Tribulation
- Israel’s repentance
- a future Millennium
None of them were preterists.
2. What changed? The destruction of Israel (135 AD)
After Rome destroyed Israel in 135–136 AD:
- Jerusalem was paganized
- Jews were expelled
- Christianity became Gentile
The Church began to spiritualize Israel’s promises.
But even then, they still expected a future Antichrist and Second Coming.
Preterism still did not exist.
3. The turning point — Augustine (c. 400 AD)
The shift comes with:
Augustine of Hippo
Augustine rejected:
- a literal future kingdom
- Israel’s restoration
- and a future millennium
He reinterpreted:
- the Millennium as “the Church age”
- Satan as “bound”
- Revelation as symbolic of the present
This is the birth of amillennialism, which is the soil out of which preterism later grows.
But Augustine himself was not a full preterist —
he still believed in a future return of Christ.
4. True preterism appears in the 1600s
What we call preterism in its modern form was developed by:
Luis de Alcázar (1614)
He proposed:
- Revelation was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem
- Nero was the Beast
- Rome was Babylon
Why?
To counter the Protestant claim that the Papacy was the Antichrist.
It was a Counter-Reformation strategy.
5. Protestants later adopted it
In the 1800s–1900s:
- liberal theology
- skepticism of miracles
- rejection of prophecy
made preterism attractive.
It removed:
- a future Antichrist
- a future judgment
- a future Israel
And replaced it with:
“It already happened.”
Final answer
Preterism is not apostolic.
It is not patristic.
It is not early Christian.
It is:
- rooted in Augustine’s allegorization
- and formally invented by a Jesuit in 1614
The earliest Church believed what Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and Revelation all taught:
Israel will be restored
Christ will return
and the Kingdom is still future.
Christ will return
and the Kingdom is still future.
Oh I think that my post was more than adequately informative.So in order to see things from a futurist viewpoint we must by pass what it meant to the audience, they heard "you"
So then in Luke YOU means you.......but in Matthew YOU means a future you.
But it is the same audience?
Doubtless I could easily provide HUNDREDS of similar examples of the "prophetic YOU".
As I said earlier, Luke 19:12-24 is unique and DOES speak to 70AD.So in order to see things from a futurist viewpoint we must by pass what it meant to the audience, they heard "you"
So then in Luke YOU means you.......but in Matthew YOU means a future you.
But it is the same audience?
Having said that, I doubt very much that those present were eyewitnesses to
all of the 70AD horrors. I think that they were forced to leave Jerusalem much earlier.
*************************************************************************************
Peter, the Twelve, and the Jerusalem leadership did not wait until 66–70 AD.
They were forced out much earlier by Jewish persecution.
Here is the real timeline.
1. The first scattering — AD 33–35
Right after Pentecost, the church was still 100% Jewish and centered in Jerusalem.
Then came the crisis.
Acts 7–8
Stephen is executed.
A massive persecution begins.
“They were all scattered throughout Judea and Samaria, except the apostles…” (Acts 8:1)
The apostles stayed at first — but not for long.
2. The death of James — AD 44
In Book of Acts 12, Herod Agrippa I:
- executed James the son of Zebedee
- imprisoned Peter
Peter escapes and says something crucial:
“Tell these things to James and the brethren.”
Then he departed and went to another place.
This is the moment Peter leaves Jerusalem permanently.
After this:
- Peter becomes an itinerant apostle
- Paul becomes dominant in Gentile lands
Jerusalem ceases to be the center of Christianity.
3. By AD 50, the apostles are gone
At the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15):
- Peter is present
- but already mostly outside the city
- James (Jesus’ brother) is now the resident leader
After this:
- Peter is in Antioch
- then Asia Minor
- then Rome
John goes to Ephesus.
Thomas goes east.
The Twelve are scattered into the nations.
4. The Jewish Church is now leaderless
When Rome comes in 66–70 AD:
- the original apostolic leadership is already gone
- Jewish Christianity is a minority
- the church is Gentile-led
So the apostles’ exile preceded the Roman destruction.
Final answer
The apostles were forced out of Jerusalem by Jewish persecution by about AD 44–50,
more than 20 years before the Romans destroyed the city.
That was the first great diaspora — and it was internal, not Roman.
“What (if anything) does Ezra, Nehemiah,Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Zechariah or anybody else in the OT ever predict about the second temple restoration of Israel?”
did you ever notice the end of the prophets ? And beginning of the gospel ?
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
Matthew 11:13 KJV
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Malachi 3:1 KJV
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. ….John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:1-2, 4
Or maybe this ?
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
If we look at what Jesus is saying he interprets thngs
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah , which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
many can’t accept that but other do
“But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. ( they beheaded John ) Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. ( they crucified jesus )
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
Matthew 17:12-13 KJV
It is really sort of simple anyone can see it if we look at the gospel first the law and prophets were all foretelling the coming of the messiah and his kingdom ……it’s just not of this world or this earth
“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
Isaiah 65:17 KJV
if you have any specific points regarding Jesus like his birth ? His death and resurrection ? His ministry and powerful signs and wonders ? Him being the law giver ? The mediator or high priest of the new covenant ? Or really any real subject matter in the gospel ….. it can be found in the prophets looking forward to Christ and his generation.
The desolation of isreel for breaking thier covenant is also repeated in the law and prophets along side the promises of Christ and the new covenant to come after
“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
Isaiah 55:3
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
Even if you look at what Moses wrote in the law he foretold of Christ who would come and speak Gods required words. Or the prophets they were always writing about him
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”
Isaiah 42:1, 4 KJV
“that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, And he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.”
Matthew 12:17-18
“Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. so shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.”
Isaiah 52:13, 15 KJV
“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53:1-2, 4-6 KJV
The prophets all relate to him in someway because he was Israel’s promosed messiah and tbier deliverer along with all who would believe the psalms also are the same
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
Psalm 22:1, 16, 18 KJV
the more of the Bible we begin to grasp the more we realize it’s all about Jesus our Lord
“And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.”
Matthew 27:35
The other story in the Bible is about man’s fall and then Israel’s story under the old covenant law and how they continually rejected God broke his covenant les and worshipped false dieties until his wrath began to reign upon them again and again until he eventually swore desolations upon the earth and promised to make a new and u defiles earth forge inheritance of Abraham’s children of faith in Jesus Christ …..