Rediscovering pisteuo.

[Watchman22]

Well spoken and quite clear. Thank you for your kind reply.

And better yet, you have provided me a full docket for Bible study come Monday morning. This is a good thing

You also cv5,
Lets get down to the nitty gritty.

What happened when you received the mind of Christ? And what affects are you living with every day?

If your understanding of pisteuo is correct, you shouldn't have any problem answering those questions.

 

[cv5]

Well we could discuss what it's like living with the mind of Christ. There's nothing in God's word to parrot about that. You have to have the experience to know the effects it has on a faither.

What happened when you received the mind of Christ? And what affects are you living with every day?

If your understanding of pisteuo is correct, you shouldn't have any problem answering thise questions correctly.

Just beginning to dig into this sir....
Probably weeks of effort remain

"In verse 17, pistis is the "product" created by the message. Once that product (the noun) exists in the heart, the person begins the act of pisteuō (the verb)."

"Paul uses the verb form in these nearby verses to show what the noun pistis actually does:
Romans 10:9: "...and believe (pisteusēs - verb) in your heart that God raised Him..."
Romans 10:10: "For with the heart one believes (pisteuetai - verb) unto righteousness..."
Romans 10:11: "Whoever believes (pisteuōn - participle/verbal noun) on Him will not be put to shame." "

 

[studier]

Well we could discuss what it's like living with the mind of Christ. There's nothing in God's word to parrot about that. You have to have the experience to know the effects it has on a faither.

What happened when you received the mind of Christ? And what affects are you living with every day?

If your understanding of pisteuo is correct, you shouldn't have any problem answering thise questions correctly.

No thanks. I worked with you early on in your time here giving you quite a bit of attention and room to explain your views. Now you're just making additional fallacious arguments. Having lost the objective lexical and linguistic arguments from God's Word, now the challenge is Gnostic elitism and your subjective experiences from which you'll evaluate responses? Calvinism, Gnosticism, alleged authority, Gene Scott being the best teacher to have existed - as I said, no substance. First we had a duality between God's Word and God's Spirit. Now we have a duality between God's Word and the mind of Christ. You're epitomizing the reason we have God's Word to compare to what people say, especially when they start dragging the discussion into subjective, experiential mysticism.

 

[Watchman22]

Just beginning to dig into this sir....
Probably weeks of effort remain

"In verse 17, pistis is the "product" created by the message. Once that product (the noun) exists in the heart, the person begins the act of pisteuō (the verb)."

"Paul uses the verb form in these nearby verses to show what the noun pistis actually does:
Romans 10:9: "...and believe (pisteusēs - verb) in your heart that God raised Him..."
Romans 10:10: "For with the heart one believes (pisteuetai - verb) unto righteousness..."
Romans 10:11: "Whoever believes (pisteuōn - participle/verbal noun) on Him will not be put to shame." "

Were done with comparing understandings, answer the questions.

 

[Watchman22]

No thanks. I worked with you early on in your time here giving you quite a bit of attention and room to explain your views. Now you're just making additional fallacious arguments. Having lost the objective lexical and linguistic arguments from God's Word, now the challenge is Gnostic elitism and your subjective experiences from which you'll evaluate responses? Calvinism, Gnosticism, alleged authority, Gene Scott being the best teacher to have existed - as I said, no substance. First we had a duality between God's Word and God's Spirit. Now we have a duality between God's Word and the mind of Christ. You're epitomizing the reason we have God's Word to compare to what people say, especially when they start dragging the discussion into subjective, experiential mysticism.

The thing about having the mind of Christ, is because there's nothing in Gods word to parrot, you can see who else has it, or not. Here's your chance to prove me wrong.

 

[Watchman22]

No thanks. I worked with you early on in your time here giving you quite a bit of attention and room to explain your views. Now you're just making additional fallacious arguments. Having lost the objective lexical and linguistic arguments from God's Word, now the challenge is Gnostic elitism and your subjective experiences from which you'll evaluate responses? Calvinism, Gnosticism, alleged authority, Gene Scott being the best teacher to have existed - as I said, no substance. First we had a duality between God's Word and God's Spirit. Now we have a duality between God's Word and the mind of Christ. You're epitomizing the reason we have God's Word to compare to what people say, especially when they start dragging the discussion into subjective, experiential mysticism.

Sorry for using the nuclear option , I could have begun with it 3 months ago. I gave you the benefit the doubt. Learn from it.

 

[studier]

Sorry for using the nuclear option , I could have begun with it 3 months ago. I gave you the benefit the doubt. Learn from it.

No problem. Calling a retreat into logical fallacies and subjective mysticism the 'nuclear option' is a strange way to concede a debate re: God's Word/Spirit/Mind - but nothing new.

 

[studier]

The thing about having the mind of Christ, is because there's nothing in Gods word to parrot, you can see who else has it, or not. Here's your chance to prove me wrong.

No need. You're doing it yourself.

 

[cv5]

Were done with comparing understandings, answer the questions.

Why would I be so hasty to respond seeing as many weeks of intense scrutiny and study are needed beforehand to lend justice to the gravity of the questions?

 

[cv5]

The Vines definition of pisteuo is perfect.

I was not critical of Vines definition of pisteuo. I was critical of your use of the term "surrender".

Surrender/submission are pillars of Islam. Not Christianity.

 

[cv5]

We've looked at the A,B,Cs of Faith and faithing. The views at least support that their are some following.

This thread will give important information about how saving faith and faithing has been lost to time.

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Jay

1. What Islam is at its core

The word “Islam” literally means “submission” (to Allah).
A Muslim is “one who submits.”

The Qur’an presents salvation as coming through:

obedience, submission, and performance of prescribed duties

These include:

Confessing Allah and Muhammad

Daily ritual prayer (salat)

Fasting Ramadan

Giving alms (zakat)

Pilgrimage (hajj)

Obedience to Islamic law (sharia)

A Muslim’s standing before God is based on:

obedience + works + submission

Even Muhammad did not know if he was saved:

Qur’an 46:9 — “I do not know what will be done with me or with you.”

There is no atonement for sin.
There is no substitute who pays your moral debt.
There is no assurance of forgiveness.

Allah may forgive — or may not.

Salvation is uncertain.

2. What Christianity is at its core

Christianity is not submission —
it is reconciliation.

The gospel does not begin with:

“Submit and obey so you may live.”

It begins with:

“You are lost — and God has come to save you.”

Christianity rests on one claim:

God Himself entered history in Jesus Christ and paid the debt of sin.

Salvation is based on:

Christ’s obedience

Christ’s righteousness

Christ’s sacrifice

Not yours.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith — not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Eph 2:8–9)

3. Islam: Law-based righteousness

Islam says:

“Do what God commands and hope He accepts you.”

Christianity says:

“God has already done what you could never do — receive it.”

In Islam:

God gives law

Man tries to satisfy it

God decides if you did enough

In Christianity:

God gives law

Man fails

God pays the penalty Himself

This is why the cross is the dividing line.

Islam denies the cross.
Christianity stands or falls on it.

4. Submission vs Trust

Islam = Surrender

“I submit, I obey, I perform, I hope.”

Christianity = Faith

“I cannot save myself — I trust Christ.”

This is why Paul said:

“If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” (Gal 2:21)

5. Why Islam must reject the Gospel

If Jesus truly paid for sin,
then human works are worthless for salvation.

That destroys:

Sharia

Ritual merit

Religious hierarchy

Human control

So Islam replaces the cross with submission.

Christianity replaces submission with grace.

The real difference

Islam:

God is distant. You climb toward Him.

Christianity:

God comes down to you.

Islam:

You work toward approval.

Christianity:

You are accepted because Christ was rejected.

Islam:

Law without love.

Christianity:

Love that fulfills the law.

 

[cv5]

We've looked at the A,B,Cs of Faith and faithing. The views at least support that their are some following.

This thread will give important information about how saving faith and faithing has been lost to time.

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Jay

"The Vines definition of pisteuo,
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender. "
This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day."

I really do think that these declarations are off the mark....if not serious error.
Which is why I avoid the all too common brandishing of the term "surrender".

KJV Search Results for "submit"

Here’s how Christians understand the New Testament use of “submit” in a way that doesn’t make Christianity a religion of works like Islam:


1. Biblical “submission” is response to God’s grace, not a way to earn salvation

In the New Testament (e.g., James, Ephesians, 1 Peter), “submit” (Greek: ὑποτάσσω / hypotassō) means:

to willingly place oneself under the authority of someone — out of trust and love.​

It’s not used as:

• a way to earn God’s approval before God forgives,
• a method to achieve salvation,
• a guarantee of standing with God.

Instead, it’s described as the appropriate response of a believer who already knows God’s grace.


For example:

• “Submit to God” (James 4:7)
• “Wives, submit to your own husbands” (Eph 5:22)
• “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man” (1 Peter 2:13)

In every case, the context clarifies what kind of submission it is.


2. In Christianity, submission flows from salvation, not toward it

Here’s the key difference:

✦ In Islam:

Submission = the means of salvation
You submit (and do good works), and God may accept you.

✦ In Christianity:

Submission = the fruit of salvation
You are already saved by God’s grace through faith — and then submission is your grateful response.


The New Testament never says:

Submit in order to be saved​

Rather it says:

Submit as those who are already saved.​

For example:

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”​

— James 4:7​

This assumes the reader already trusts God — the call is to live consistently with that trust.


3. Christian submission is voluntary trust, not forced servitude

The word “submit” in the New Testament carries the idea of:

• willing obedience,
• trusting God’s authority,
• choosing Christ’s way out of love.

It’s not about:

• earning favor,
• fear of punishment,
• or cosmic transactional merit.

Paul describes Jesus like this:

“Though He was in the form of God, He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,​

but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a servant…”​

— Philippians 2:6-7​

So submission in Christianity is modeled after Christ, who submitted not to earn salvation, but out of love and obedience as the Savior.


4. Terms like “submit” in the NT are part of sanctification, not justification

Christians usually distinguish:


Term Means Outcome JustificationBeing made right with God by grace through faith (not works)Salvation assuredSanctificationGrowing in Christ-like behavior, obedience, submissionMaturity and obedience

So when the NT says “submit,” it’s usually talking about sanctification — how saved people live out their faith — not how a person gets saved in the first place.


5. Submission in the NT is always contextual

Here are common examples:


✔ Submit to God — live under God’s authority because you trust Him
✔ Submit to rulers / authorities — Christians show good citizenship
✔ Submit to one another in love — mutual humility
✔ Wives submit to husbands (in context of loving leadership and mutual respect)


None of these are about earning salvation by doing them.


They are about living the life of a believer who has already received grace.


So the Christian concept of submission means:

I am saved by grace through faith — not by my submission.
I submit because Christ has already saved and taught me.
Submission is a grateful response, not a requirement to gain acceptance.


This is really the heart of the difference with Islam. In Islam, submission and obedience are part of the way to earn acceptance before God. In Christianity, submission is part of living out the grace already given through Christ.

 

[HeIsHere]

"The Vines definition of pisteuo,
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender. "
This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day."

I really do think that these declarations are off the mark....if not serious error.
Which is why I avoid the all too common brandishing of the term "surrender".

KJV Search Results for "submit"

Here’s how Christians understand the New Testament use of “submit” in a way that doesn’t make Christianity a religion of works like Islam:


1. Biblical “submission” is response to God’s grace, not a way to earn salvation

In the New Testament (e.g., James, Ephesians, 1 Peter), “submit” (Greek: ὑποτάσσω / hypotassō) means:

to willingly place oneself under the authority of someone — out of trust and love.​

It’s not used as:

• a way to earn God’s approval before God forgives,
• a method to achieve salvation,
• a guarantee of standing with God.

Instead, it’s described as the appropriate response of a believer who already knows God’s grace.


For example:

• “Submit to God” (James 4:7)
• “Wives, submit to your own husbands” (Eph 5:22)
• “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man” (1 Peter 2:13)

In every case, the context clarifies what kind of submission it is.


2. In Christianity, submission flows from salvation, not toward it

Here’s the key difference:

✦ In Islam:

Submission = the means of salvation
You submit (and do good works), and God may accept you.

✦ In Christianity:

Submission = the fruit of salvation
You are already saved by God’s grace through faith — and then submission is your grateful response.


The New Testament never says:

Submit in order to be saved​

Rather it says:

Submit as those who are already saved.​

For example:

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”​

— James 4:7​

This assumes the reader already trusts God — the call is to live consistently with that trust.


3. Christian submission is voluntary trust, not forced servitude

The word “submit” in the New Testament carries the idea of:

• willing obedience,
• trusting God’s authority,
• choosing Christ’s way out of love.

It’s not about:

• earning favor,
• fear of punishment,
• or cosmic transactional merit.

Paul describes Jesus like this:

“Though He was in the form of God, He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,​

but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a servant…”​

— Philippians 2:6-7​

So submission in Christianity is modeled after Christ, who submitted not to earn salvation, but out of love and obedience as the Savior.


4. Terms like “submit” in the NT are part of sanctification, not justification

Christians usually distinguish:


Term Means Outcome JustificationBeing made right with God by grace through faith (not works)Salvation assuredSanctificationGrowing in Christ-like behavior, obedience, submissionMaturity and obedience

So when the NT says “submit,” it’s usually talking about sanctification — how saved people live out their faith — not how a person gets saved in the first place.


5. Submission in the NT is always contextual

Here are common examples:


✔ Submit to God — live under God’s authority because you trust Him
✔ Submit to rulers / authorities — Christians show good citizenship
✔ Submit to one another in love — mutual humility
✔ Wives submit to husbands (in context of loving leadership and mutual respect)


None of these are about earning salvation by doing them.


They are about living the life of a believer who has already received grace.


So the Christian concept of submission means:

I am saved by grace through faith — not by my submission.
I submit because Christ has already saved and taught me.
Submission is a grateful response, not a requirement to gain acceptance.


This is really the heart of the difference with Islam. In Islam, submission and obedience are part of the way to earn acceptance before God. In Christianity, submission is part of living out the grace already given through Christ.

Good post and agree.

I also see that when surrender, ongoing obedience, ongoing faith to secure salvation enters the equation then we have quid pro quo, I give in order to receive.

I think scripture states we cannot put God in our debt as though He is paying out a wage for our faith.

"Now to the one working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt." Romans 4:4
Berean Bible

 

[Watchman22]

ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF SAVING FAITH​

What are the constituent elements of saving faith? The Protestant Reformers recognized that biblical faith has three essential aspects: notitia, assensus, and fiducia.

Notitia refers to the content of faith, the things we believe. There are certain things we are required to believe about Christ, namely, that He is the Son of God, that He is our Savior, that He has provided an atonement, and so on.

Assensus is the conviction that the content of our faith is true. One can know about the Christian faith and yet believe that it is not true. We might have a doubt or two mixed with our faith, but there has to be a certain level of intellectual affirmation and conviction if we are to be saved. Before anyone can really trust in Jesus Christ, he has to believe that Christ indeed is the Savior, that He is who He claimed to be. Genuine faith says that the content, the notitia, is true.

Fiducia refers to personal trust and reliance. Knowing and believing the content of the Christian faith is not enough, for even demons can do that (James 2:19). Faith is effectual only if one personally trusts in Christ alone for salvation. It is one thing to give an intellectual assent to a proposition but quite another to place personal trust in it. We can say that we believe in justification by faith alone and yet still think that we are going to get to heaven by our achievements, our works, or our striving. It is easy to get the doctrine of justification by faith into our heads, but it is hard to get it into the bloodstream such that we cling to Christ alone for salvation.

There is another element to fiducia besides trust, and that is affection. An unregenerate person will never come to Jesus, because he does not want Jesus. In his mind and heart, he is fundamentally at enmity with the things of God. As long as someone is hostile to Christ, he has no affection for Him. Satan is a case in point. Satan knows the truth, but he hates the truth. He is utterly disinclined to worship God because he has no love for God. We are like that by nature. We are dead in our sin. We walk according to the powers of this world and indulge the lusts of the flesh. Until the Holy Spirit changes us, we have hearts of stone. An unregenerate heart is without affection for Christ; it is both lifeless and loveless. The Holy Spirit changes the disposition of our hearts so that we see the sweetness of Christ and embrace Him. None of us loves Christ perfectly, but we cannot love Him at all unless the Holy Spirit changes the heart of stone and makes it a heart of flesh. ~Sproul, R. C. (2014). Everyone’s a Theologian: An Introduction to Systematic Theology (pp. 238–239). Reformation Trust.

~Deuteronomy

So this is how your deflecting my testing you?
Gods word says test everything. Thats what I'm doing to you.

Mind of Christ, how long have you had it, what happened when you received it, and what does it feel like every minute of every?

If you cannot answer these questions, your an illegitimate and dishonest reporter.

Prove yourself

 

[studier]

"The Vines definition of pisteuo,
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender. "
This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day."

I really do think that these declarations are off the mark....if not serious error.
Which is why I avoid the all too common brandishing of the term "surrender".

KJV Search Results for "submit"

Here’s how Christians understand the New Testament use of “submit” in a way that doesn’t make Christianity a religion of works like Islam:


1. Biblical “submission” is response to God’s grace, not a way to earn salvation

In the New Testament (e.g., James, Ephesians, 1 Peter), “submit” (Greek: ὑποτάσσω / hypotassō) means:

to willingly place oneself under the authority of someone — out of trust and love.​

It’s not used as:

• a way to earn God’s approval before God forgives,
• a method to achieve salvation,
• a guarantee of standing with God.

Instead, it’s described as the appropriate response of a believer who already knows God’s grace.


For example:

• “Submit to God” (James 4:7)
• “Wives, submit to your own husbands” (Eph 5:22)
• “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man” (1 Peter 2:13)

In every case, the context clarifies what kind of submission it is.


2. In Christianity, submission flows from salvation, not toward it

Here’s the key difference:

✦ In Islam:

Submission = the means of salvation
You submit (and do good works), and God may accept you.

✦ In Christianity:

Submission = the fruit of salvation
You are already saved by God’s grace through faith — and then submission is your grateful response.


The New Testament never says:

Submit in order to be saved​

Rather it says:

Submit as those who are already saved.​

For example:

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”​

— James 4:7​

This assumes the reader already trusts God — the call is to live consistently with that trust.


3. Christian submission is voluntary trust, not forced servitude

The word “submit” in the New Testament carries the idea of:

• willing obedience,
• trusting God’s authority,
• choosing Christ’s way out of love.

It’s not about:

• earning favor,
• fear of punishment,
• or cosmic transactional merit.

Paul describes Jesus like this:

“Though He was in the form of God, He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,​

but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a servant…”​

— Philippians 2:6-7​

So submission in Christianity is modeled after Christ, who submitted not to earn salvation, but out of love and obedience as the Savior.


4. Terms like “submit” in the NT are part of sanctification, not justification

Christians usually distinguish:


Term Means Outcome JustificationBeing made right with God by grace through faith (not works)Salvation assuredSanctificationGrowing in Christ-like behavior, obedience, submissionMaturity and obedience

So when the NT says “submit,” it’s usually talking about sanctification — how saved people live out their faith — not how a person gets saved in the first place.


5. Submission in the NT is always contextual

Here are common examples:


✔ Submit to God — live under God’s authority because you trust Him
✔ Submit to rulers / authorities — Christians show good citizenship
✔ Submit to one another in love — mutual humility
✔ Wives submit to husbands (in context of loving leadership and mutual respect)


None of these are about earning salvation by doing them.


They are about living the life of a believer who has already received grace.


So the Christian concept of submission means:

I am saved by grace through faith — not by my submission.
I submit because Christ has already saved and taught me.
Submission is a grateful response, not a requirement to gain acceptance.


This is really the heart of the difference with Islam. In Islam, submission and obedience are part of the way to earn acceptance before God. In Christianity, submission is part of living out the grace already given through Christ.

Rom10:3 hupotassō keeping in mind the context of Rom10 I laid out yesterday?

cc: @HeIsHere

 

[cv5]

Rom10:3 hupotassō keeping in mind the context of Rom10 I laid out yesterday?

cc: @HeIsHere

G5293 - hypotassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

My point is simply: when the NT says “submit,” it’s usually talking about sanctification — how saved people live out their faith — not how a person gets saved in the first place.

Something interesting of note in Romans 10 in the Greek (new to me but doubtless not to you): akouō vs hypakouō.
So hypakouō "faithful" hearing comes after akouō hearing? After believing?

Rom 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have G191 not heard? G191 and how shall they hear G191 without a preacher?

Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed G5219 from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 10:16
But they have G5219 not all obeyed G5219 the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

ἀκούω (akoúō) = to hear
ὑπακούω (hypa-koúō) = to hear under → to heed, to submit to what is heard

The prefix ὑπό (hypo) means under (as in hierarchy, hypodermic, etc.).

So:
ὑπακούω = to place oneself under what is heard

This is not just louder hearing — it is positional hearing.
It means accepting the authority of what one hears.

That is why in Greek literature and the NT it means:
to obey, to submit, to respond with compliance

ἀκούω = auditory reception
ὑπακούω = covenantal submission to what is heard

 

[cv5]

Good post and agree.

I also see that when surrender, ongoing obedience, ongoing faith to secure salvation enters the equation then we have quid pro quo, I give in order to receive.

I think scripture states we cannot put God in our debt as though He is paying out a wage for our faith.

"Now to the one working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt." Romans 4:4
Berean Bible

The Vines definition of pisteuo,
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender.

I think that @Watchman22 simply messed up the order and emphasis.
hypakouō obedient hearing is the goal, but how often is it met?

 

[HeIsHere]

The Vines definition of pisteuo,
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender.

I think that @Watchman22 simply messed up the order and emphasis.
hypakouō obedient hearing is the goal, but how often is it met?

Yes, agree that is a better order.

I just think that scripture presents justification and sanctification as separate, but those who see salvation as something which can be forfeited/lost, tend to conflate the two.

 

[cv5]

Yes, agree that is a better order.

I just think that scripture presents justification and sanctification as separate, but those who see salvation as something which can be forfeited/lost, tend to conflate the two.

@Watchman22 said:
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender.

Well, I take issue with #1 "personal surrender".....of what exactly? What we are doing is yielding to His will by active positive volition in faith.

And also #2 "a life inspired by such a surrender".......sound quaint, but frankly wrong. Our lives are DEFINITELY not "inspired" by our own "surrender".

 

[HeIsHere]

@Watchman22 said:
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender.

Well, I take issue with #1 "personal surrender".....of what exactly? What we are doing is yielding to His will by active positive volition in faith.

And also #2 "a life inspired by such a surrender".......sound quaint, but frankly wrong. Our lives are DEFINITELY not "inspired" by our own "surrender".

I guess I will have to go back and read more of the thread to get the flow of the conversation.

I think he is saying that the result of the surrender becomes an inspired life.