Rediscovering pisteuo.

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Here's a copy of a Strong's version I've had on my system for years and look at periodically to check how combined words are viewed in this work:

G-5293. hupotasso, hoop-ot-as'-so;​
from {A.}G-5259 and {B.}G-5021; to subordinate; reflex. to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.​
{A.} G-5259. hupo, hoop-o';​
a prim. prep.; under, i.e. (with the gen.) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the acc.) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]):--among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In comp. it retains the same gen. applications, espec. of inferior position or condition, and spec. covertly or moderately.​
{B.} G-5021. tasso, tas'-so;​
a prol. form of a prim. verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):--addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.​

If I take it at it's most base, I'd say "to arrange under" (to subordinate). So, we hear, we become convinced, we believe, we subordinate to the absolute authority of the Christ/King. This is basically the picture Paul is drawing in Rom10 and the reason he parallels faith and hupokouō in Rom10:16 re: the Gospel - there simply is no genuine faith in the King apart from obeying the King. And, yes, positive volition, the will to hear and obey/believe.

We dealt with Acts13:48 somewhere along the Calvinism battle lines. You're tapping into that with the "set in order" concept - those Gentiles had been set in order - in a sense prepared for eternal life by attending synagogue with the Jews (Acts13:15-16) - they were not ignorant of the things Paul was proclaiming and explaining to the Jews and Gentiles (God Fearers) in what is the most comprehensive narrative of Paul's proclaiming that we have record of (Act13:16-41) and note in Acts16:33 he references Ps2 which is one of the best pieces of Scripture to explain what YHWH's Christ (Anointed) means = YHWH's King who inherits the nations and the ends of the earth and who the kings and judges on the earth best serve and kiss lest He be angry!
IMO, we would be right to question Vine here.
Yes, I am using an online "compiler", but these are indeed my original thoughts.
You might want to chime in @HeIsHere :giggle:

1. τάσσω (tássō) — what it actually means

τάσσω does not mean “obey.”
It means:


to arrange, assign, order, place into a structured position

It is a structural word, not a moral one.


Used for:


  • military rank
  • appointed roles
  • scheduled times
  • assigned positions

It answers:


“Where does this belong in the system?”​

2. ὑποτάσσω (hypo-tássō)

Now add ὑπό (hypo = under).


Literally:


ὑποτάσσω = to arrange under

Not:


  • surrender
  • capitulate
  • become passive

But:


to place into a lower rank within an ordered structure

This is relational positioning, not emotional yielding.


3. Why Vine’s “surrender” is wrong

“Surrender” means:


to give up resistance​

But ὑποτάσσω never means:


  • being defeated
  • being coerced
  • losing agency

In the NT:


  • Jesus ὑποτάσσεται to His parents (Luke 2:51)
  • Creation is ὑποταγείσα to futility (Rom 8:20)
  • Wives ὑποτάσσεσθε to husbands
  • Believers ὑποτάσσεσθε to God

None of these imply defeat or loss of dignity.


They imply:


accepting one’s place in God’s ordered hierarchy

4. The intentional meaning

The intent of ὑποτάσσω is:


to willingly recognize and live according to a divinely established order

Not:


“I give up”​

But:


“I acknowledge who is above and who is below in this structure.”​

It is ontological, not emotional.


5. Why this matters theologically

Paul uses ὑποτάσσω because Christianity is not:


  • anarchy
  • equality of roles
  • or chaos

It is a cosmos (ordered world).


God is not asking for groveling.
He is asking for alignment.



6. Your instinct was exactly right

When translators say:


hypotassō = surrender​

they import modern power-politics into an ancient structural word.


But Greek is saying something much cleaner:


“Place yourself under God’s ordering.”

That is what submission actually means.
 
Nice try. As I stated before, Gnostic elitist mysticism.

In actuality, Paul's statement about the 'mind of Christ' that 'we' have (1Cor2:16) is quite easy to understand in context. When someone makes it into what's it's not and inserts their own meaning into it, then no one can have it unless that someone approves.

You're simply not the authority you assert.
"Thats the beauty of the mind of Christ, nothing in Scripture gives any clues of what happens, how it happens, and what it's like to live with it every day. There's hints to the spiritual awakening and even the Holy spirit, but nothing about the mind of Christ. At least not in the NT. And because it's very rare, people can't parrot it, even the algorithms don't have it yet, and i need to keep it that way.
And of course, just like all of Gods gifts, once it happens to you, you can recognize it in others very easy."


Agree, this is kind of nonsense is elitist Gnostic bafflegab, with a heavy doses of passive aggressive domineering.
Imagine if you will @Watchman22 walking the streets, grabbing people by their lapels and demanding to know "if they have the mind of Christ"? Sounds crazy right?

A passive-aggressive person wants:
-to dominate
-to punish
-to force outcomes

That is a form of covert dominance.
 
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Still have to deal with what Israel did not submit/subordinate to in Rom10:3 in context. Re: submit/subordinate to, consider #1 above - they did not arrange themselves under - set themselves under - subordinate to - subject themselves to - submit to...

It all plays out in the multiple words I dealt with yesterday re: Rom10 beginning in flow with God's rēma...

I like agree with your point here, because it takes into account the purpose of the letters and the audience. (y)
 
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God is not asking for groveling.
He is asking for alignment.

Agree, I like this point, this idea of "groveling" rears its head sometimes..especially in the cult -like churches.

Reminds me of the self-flagellation of the monks in the past.. kinda carried forward in a different manner.
 
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Agree, I like this point, this idea of "groveling" rears its head sometimes..especially in the cult -like churches.

Reminds me of the self-flagellation of the monks in the past.. kinda carried forward in a different manner.
Unfortunately, some of the more twisted psyches coddle these kinds error and misinterpretation. And yes, use them to flagellate either themselves, and/or others whom they seek to dominate.
 
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Attempting to explain part of what's contained in Rom10:

cc: @cv5 @HeIsHere

NKJ Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world." 19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation." 20 But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me." 21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people."

  • Tracking Paul’s synonymous and explanatory phrasing from the beginning:
    • The righteousness of/from God = Christ for righteousness to/for every man who believes = the word/message we proclaim = verbally confess/acknowledge Lord/Jesus & believe God resurrected Him > you will be saved – whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame - whoever calls the Lord’s name will be saved – the proclaimed good news re: peace – good news re: the good things – the good news [to be] obeyed / believedthe faith [which results from] hearing through the spoken word of/from God.
  • 10:1-3 Israel did not submit to (hupotassō) the righteousness [of] the God (to be saved).
  • 10:4 to paraphrase in context:
    • Israel in ignorance did not submit to righteousness of/from God
      • For [unbelieving] Israel did not submit to Christ for righteousness to/for men who believe
Summarizing a few points among many here:
  • All of this language highlighted in blue is speaking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ that originated from the spoken word of God
    • When Paul speaks of “the faith” in Rom10:17 – he is weaving together everything he’s been saying about men believing & what men believe. He's also spoken this way in Rom10:6 the righteousness of/from faith & Rom10:8 the word/message of faith he proclaims.
      • The faith = God’s originally spoken Good News about His Son Jesus Christ that men believe/obey/submit to.
  • [Some of] Israel did not submit to the Gospel of Jesus Christ from God – the righteousness of/from God (Rom10:3) = [Some of] Israel is who did not obey/believe the Good News (Rom10:16).
    • Submission (Rom10:3) in effect is parallel to and explains Obedience (Rom10:16a) which in effect is parallel to and explains Believing (Rom10:16b).
      • Submission to God/Obedience to God/Believing God
  • God’s spoken Gospel of Jesus Christ for Righteousness and Salvation:
    • Must be Submitted to (hupotassō)
    • Must be Obeyed (hupakouō)
    • Must be Believed (pisteuō)
  • Since all of this language is about God’s originating His Gospel for righteousness and Salvation from God:
    • God Must be Submitted to (hupotassō)
    • God Must be Obeyed (hupakouō)
    • God Must be Believed (pisteuō)
 
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IMO, we would be right to question Vine here.
Yes, I am using an online "compiler", but these are indeed my original thoughts.
You might want to chime in @HeIsHere :giggle:

1. τάσσω (tássō) — what it actually means

τάσσω does not mean “obey.”
It means:


to arrange, assign, order, place into a structured position

It is a structural word, not a moral one.


Used for:


  • military rank
  • appointed roles
  • scheduled times
  • assigned positions

It answers:


“Where does this belong in the system?”​

2. ὑποτάσσω (hypo-tássō)

Now add ὑπό (hypo = under).


Literally:


ὑποτάσσω = to arrange under

Not:


  • surrender
  • capitulate
  • become passive

But:


to place into a lower rank within an ordered structure

This is relational positioning, not emotional yielding.


3. Why Vine’s “surrender” is wrong

“Surrender” means:


to give up resistance​

But ὑποτάσσω never means:


  • being defeated
  • being coerced
  • losing agency

In the NT:


  • Jesus ὑποτάσσεται to His parents (Luke 2:51)
  • Creation is ὑποταγείσα to futility (Rom 8:20)
  • Wives ὑποτάσσεσθε to husbands
  • Believers ὑποτάσσεσθε to God

None of these imply defeat or loss of dignity.


They imply:


accepting one’s place in God’s ordered hierarchy

4. The intentional meaning

The intent of ὑποτάσσω is:


to willingly recognize and live according to a divinely established order

Not:


“I give up”​

But:


“I acknowledge who is above and who is below in this structure.”​

It is ontological, not emotional.


5. Why this matters theologically

Paul uses ὑποτάσσω because Christianity is not:


  • anarchy
  • equality of roles
  • or chaos

It is a cosmos (ordered world).


God is not asking for groveling.
He is asking for alignment.



6. Your instinct was exactly right

When translators say:


hypotassō = surrender​

they import modern power-politics into an ancient structural word.


But Greek is saying something much cleaner:


“Place yourself under God’s ordering.”

That is what submission actually means.

I gave @Watchman22 a lot of attention and room to explain himself and Vine's explanation. After some time and seeing his authoritarian tendencies (now on full display plus coupled to Gnostic elitism IMO), I at a point simply said I didn't think "surrender" was a good word to use and that it's not one used much in the Text in any language. I also didn't think John1:12 was a good basis for Vine's statement. I think one of the alternatives I brought up was "submission" but @Watchman22 is stuck on his position and as I see it, not adept at dealing with the Text. Also, he does not know Greek as he may seem to, to some.

One reason I gave him the room re: "surrender" is because of all the teaching out there re: yielding and how "surrender" in a sense can be compared to "yielding" & "submission". But "pisteuo" means "believe" at it's most basic and does not mean "surrender". To connect any sense of submission and obeying into "pisteuo" is to go through much Scripture (as I just did with Rom10) and see how Scripture may connect them. Even in doing so, "surrender" is just not a word I'd use and certainly not in redefining "pisteuo" which needs to retain it's basic sense and then be built upon.
 
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I gave @Watchman22 a lot of attention and room to explain himself and Vine's explanation. After some time and seeing his authoritarian tendencies (now on full display plus coupled to Gnostic elitism IMO), I at a point simply said I didn't think "surrender" was a good word to use and that it's not one used much in the Text in any language. I also didn't think John1:12 was a good basis for Vine's statement. I think one of the alternatives I brought up was "submission" but @Watchman22 is stuck on his position and as I see it, not adept at dealing with the Text. Also, he does not know Greek as he may seem to, to some.

One reason I gave him the room re: "surrender" is because of all the teaching out there re: yielding and how "surrender" in a sense can be compared to "yielding" & "submission". But "pisteuo" means "believe" at it's most basic and does not mean "surrender". To connect any sense of submission and obeying into "pisteuo" is to go through much Scripture (as I just did with Rom10) and see how Scripture may connect them. Even in doing so, "surrender" is just not a word I'd use and certainly not in redefining "pisteuo" which needs to retain it's basic sense and then be built upon.
Even in doing so, "surrender" is just not a word I'd use and certainly not in redefining "pisteuo" which needs to retain it's basic sense and then be built upon.

Agree. @Watchman22 went into the weeds here. It really takes a disciplined mind to stay in the right lane, I have plenty of trouble doing so myself.

Unfortunately @Watchman22 injected that Gnostic mystery "feely" "bossy" stuff somehow.....:cautious:
 
Here are a couple of prayers that can help establish an anchoring point that will last through the perfecting process.

"God, I offer myself to thee -- to build with me and to do with me as thou wills. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy Will always!"

"Father, , I am now willing that you should have all of me the good and the bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character that stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here to do Thy bidding, Amen."

There is a grafting process that happens in Gods ways of salvation. These prayers will help make a strong grafting onto God and His word. They will also help to maintain and complete the salvation journey.
 
We've looked at the A,B,Cs of Faith and faithing. The views at least support that their are some following.

This thread will give important information about how saving faith and faithing has been lost to time.

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Jay

Bumped for Leeloving