Rediscovering pisteuo.

[Watchman22]

I'm not the one going around insisting we use your definition of pisteuo. THAT'S YOU.

God has been fine to teach His people Himself without you interfering. You are just doing this to gain followers for yourself.

I alreadty have a gifted teacher. His name is Jesus, my Lord and Savior. No one else is better.

There's a reason I'm bringing this information to you 2ndtimeisthecharm.
I can't share that with you, but it's not to gain followers. I wouldn't know what one looks like.

I hope you can see through the flawed messenger, and consider the message. We're all growing.

 

[Watchman22]

Are you saying you've only come across one or two people who know as much as you in 38 years?

It's a simple bar. Do they know what saving faith is? I'm not a gifted teacher, but I can recognize one. And when I see one, I take full advantage of it. To know Him and His ways better.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Jesus, the Lord and savior.
The one you refuse to surrender your life and will over to?

See, that's what a false teacher would say. As if Gods children can't know Him themselves and must have a "gifted" teacher explain what God wants of them.

No thanks.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

There's a reason I'm bringing this information to you 2ndtimeisthecharm.
I can't share that with you, but it's not to gain followers. I wouldn't know what one looks like.

I hope you can see through the flawed messenger, and consider the message. We're all growing.

I have God to tell me Himself already.

He prefers to teach His children Himself not just to make sure we learn exactly what He wants to teach, but also to deepen and strengthen our fellowship with Him. That can't happen if people like you are in the way.

I don't need you.

 

[Watchman22]

I have God to tell me Himself already.

He prefers to teach His children Himself not just to make sure we learn exactly what He wants to teach, but also to deepen and strengthen our fellowship with Him. That can't happen if people like you are in the way.

I don't need you.

What part of Eph. 4:11-12 don't you understand. Your not going to get any special revelations from God until you do what is required by everyone.

And that's a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

 

[Watchman22]

I have God to tell me Himself already.

He prefers to teach His children Himself not just to make sure we learn exactly what He wants to teach, but also to deepen and strengthen our fellowship with Him. That can't happen if people like you are in the way.

I don't need you.

Stating the obvious, if God is teaching you Himself, you would be one of the gifted ministers.

If you were taught by God Himself and a gifted minister, you would either know what saving faith is, or know when you heard it.

Maybe thats why we've crossed paths?

 

[studier]

Believe is an English word only.
Theres no word Believe in the Greek language.

Yes, "believe" is an English and not a Greek word.
"Believe" is an appropriate translation for Greek "pisteuō".
Vine's Dictionary is not the ultimate authority - especially not just part of what Vine's says.
The problem is that both pisteuō and pistis accumulate substantial definition and explanation from the Text, so they end up meaning much more than simply believing one piece of content - but that's where the instruction re: pisteuō and pistis begins and it's important.

BTW, you're also missing that Rom10:17 in context is speaking about the Gospel originally from the rēma of/from God.

cc: @cv5

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

What part of Eph. 4:11-12 don't you understand. Your not going to get any special revelations from God until you do what is required by everyone.

And that's a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

I have a good relationship with God already. He personally knows me. I get plenty of revelation from Him since the beginning of my walk with Him. I just don't show it off but build up my brothers and sisters in Christ with it when Lord Jesus instructs me to. I don't need your special requirements for that.

You may say you dont want followers for yourself, but that is exactly what you're trying to do.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Stating the obvious, if God is teaching you Himself, you would be one of the gifted ministers.

If you were taught by God Himself and a gifted minister, you would either know what saving faith is, or know when you heard it.

Maybe thats why we've crossed paths?

I don't need to prove anything to you. You're not my God. I serve Him, not you.

Who do you think you are to try to poach God's servants?

 

[Watchman22]

I have a good relationship with God already. He personally knows me. I get plenty of revelation from Him since the beginning of my walk with Him. I just don't show it off but build up my brothers and sisters in Christ with it when Lord Jesus instructs me to. I don't need your special requirements for that.

You may say you dont want followers for yourself, but that is exactly what you're trying to do.

I do see myself as standing on the shoulders of my gifted teacher to get the best look possible at the first goer Jesus, the anointed Messiah.
And I do feel like I'm yelling at those behind me saying, watch out for that stumbling block, and He's this way. No interest in followers.

 

[cv5]

Yes, "believe" is an English and not a Greek word.
"Believe" is an appropriate translation for Greek "pisteuō".
Vine's Dictionary is not the ultimate authority - especially not just part of what Vine's says.
The problem is that both pisteuō and pistis accumulate substantial definition and explanation from the Text, so they end up meaning much more than simply believing one piece of content - but that's where the instruction re: pisteuō and pistis begins and it's important.

BTW, you're also missing that Rom10:17 in context is speaking about the Gospel originally from the rēma of/from God.

cc: @cv5

Well this is what Gemini came up with:

In the New Testament, the Greek word rhēma (ῥῆμα) generally refers to the "spoken word"—a specific, vibrant utterance or a "word for the moment"—as opposed to logos, which often refers to the broader, foundational Word or message.

In the book of Romans, there are two primary instances where Paul uses this specific term.

1. The Word of Faith
Romans 10:8
"But what does it say? 'The word (rhēma) is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word (rhēma) of faith we are proclaiming."

In this context, Paul is emphasizing that the message of salvation isn't a distant, unreachable philosophy. It is a spoken truth that has been brought close to the believer, intended to be confessed with the mouth and believed in the heart.

2. Faith Comes by Hearing
Romans 10:17
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word (rhēma) of Christ."
(Note: Some manuscripts read "the word of God")

This is perhaps the most famous use of rhēma in the epistles. It suggests that faith is ignited when the specific, spoken word of Christ is communicated and "heard" spiritually. It’s not just about reading text on a page, but the active, living voice of God Quickening the heart.

 

[Watchman22]

Well this is what Gemini came up with:

In the New Testament, the Greek word rhēma (ῥῆμα) generally refers to the "spoken word"—a specific, vibrant utterance or a "word for the moment"—as opposed to logos, which often refers to the broader, foundational Word or message.

In the book of Romans, there are two primary instances where Paul uses this specific term.

1. The Word of Faith
Romans 10:8
"But what does it say? 'The word (rhēma) is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word (rhēma) of faith we are proclaiming."

In this context, Paul is emphasizing that the message of salvation isn't a distant, unreachable philosophy. It is a spoken truth that has been brought close to the believer, intended to be confessed with the mouth and believed in the heart.

2. Faith Comes by Hearing
Romans 10:17
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word (rhēma) of Christ."
(Note: Some manuscripts read "the word of God")

This is perhaps the most famous use of rhēma in the epistles. It suggests that faith is ignited when the specific, spoken word of Christ is communicated and "heard" spiritually. It’s not just about reading text on a page, but the active, living voice of God Quickening the heart.

I

The important take away is it's not talking about the gospel outright like alot of people think.
If it were the gospel, the Greek word euaggelion would have been used.

 

[studier]

The problem with introducing the word "believe" into the faith process is the most dangerous at the beginning of the process, before the Spirit of Christ is given.

If it's introduced as a response to the call of the Father in the beginning, Gods word becomes the object of faith instead of God Himself. Gods word at that beginning stage is not ours yet to believe, claim, obey, nothing. Real important to respond correctly to establish the personal relationship with the continual surrender to Him.

Belief comes in as part of the process, but not to Gods word yet.

Pisteuo or the application of faith is a verb, defined as an act, BASED UPON A BELIEF, sustained by confidence.

BELIEF is believing that He will accept the surrendered life, not anything to do with Gods word yet. Not until we receive His Spirit.

Make sense?

Sounds Calvinistic.

God's Word is from God - if I believe what God says, then I believe God and in God. You're creating an imaginary duality - that God and His Word are separate. The relationship is established in believing what He says and in the case of believing in His Son, it's also obeying His command to believe in His Son. So the relationship begins in our cooperating with Him in faith-obedience. If you want to call this surrender, I've already explained elsewhere that it's not the wording I'd use, and that Vine's referenced verses for "surrender" didn't make much sense when I looked at them, but I know it's no use talking to you about this

Pisteuō is an active voice verb. The 'believing' doesn't precede the 'act - the believing IS the act. You are trying to solve a self-perceived translation problem by creating a theological duality. When I believe in the Christ of Psalm2, that believing is the active-voice act of submission. And, Biblically, to believe in the King is to obey the King.

And where do you get this information that God will accept anything if not from His Word which His Word in Prov1:23 makes parallel with His Spirit? The foundation of the Gospel which originated in God's spoken Word (Rom10:16-17) is that Jesus is the Christ (1Cor3:10-11 cf. Ps2; Acts13:33). Believing this is the foundation of the relationship with God and His Son and is also obedience to God's command to believe in the name of His Son (1John3:23).

No.

 

[cv5]

Sounds Calvinistic.

God's Word is from God - if I believe what God says, then I believe God and in God. You're creating an imaginary duality - that God and His Word are separate. The relationship is established in believing what He says and in the case of believing in His Son, it's also obeying His command to believe in His Son. So the relationship begins in our cooperating with Him in faith-obedience. If you want to call this surrender, I've already explained elsewhere that it's not the wording I'd use, and that Vine's referenced verses for "surrender" didn't make much sense when I looked at them, but I know it's no use talking to you about this

Pisteuō is an active voice verb. The 'believing' doesn't precede the 'act - the believing IS the act. You are trying to solve a self-perceived translation problem by creating a theological duality. When I believe in the Christ of Psalm2, that believing is the active-voice act of submission. And, Biblically, to believe in the King is to obey the King.

And where do you get this information that God will accept anything if not from His Word which His Word in Prov1:23 makes parallel with His Spirit? The foundation of the Gospel which originated in God's spoken Word (Rom10:16-17) is that Jesus is the Christ (1Cor3:10-11 cf. Ps2; Acts13:33). Believing this is the foundation of the relationship with God and His Son and is also obedience to God's command to believe in the name of His Son (1John3:23).

No.

Spot on. That's my perspective on the matter as well....

So the relationship begins in our cooperating with Him in faith-obedience. If you want to call this surrender, I've already explained elsewhere that it's not the wording I'd use, and that Vine's referenced verses for "surrender" didn't make much sense when I looked at them, but I know it's no use talking to you about this

Also agree that Vines definition is wanting....

 

[studier]

Well this is what Gemini came up with:

In the New Testament, the Greek word rhēma (ῥῆμα) generally refers to the "spoken word"—a specific, vibrant utterance or a "word for the moment"—as opposed to logos, which often refers to the broader, foundational Word or message.

In the book of Romans, there are two primary instances where Paul uses this specific term.

1. The Word of Faith
Romans 10:8
"But what does it say? 'The word (rhēma) is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word (rhēma) of faith we are proclaiming."

In this context, Paul is emphasizing that the message of salvation isn't a distant, unreachable philosophy. It is a spoken truth that has been brought close to the believer, intended to be confessed with the mouth and believed in the heart.

2. Faith Comes by Hearing
Romans 10:17
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word (rhēma) of Christ."
(Note: Some manuscripts read "the word of God")

This is perhaps the most famous use of rhēma in the epistles. It suggests that faith is ignited when the specific, spoken word of Christ is communicated and "heard" spiritually. It’s not just about reading text on a page, but the active, living voice of God Quickening the heart.

In Rom10 there are several words being used to speak about the same thing and it all originates from the spoken word of God. I'll try reversing what Paul says and begin with God's rhēma rather than reverse into it as Paul does:

• Rom10:17 God's rhēma > through God's rhēma > [God's] news-akoē > from God's news-akoē > the faith-pistis = Rom10:8 the rhēma [of] the faith-pistis [Paul and others] proclaim/declare = the rhēma that is near you - in your mouth and in your heart = Rom10:6 what the righteousness [of/from] faith says

Rom10:10-13 is a series of explanations based from OC Scripture instructing that this rhēma/akoē/the pistis/righteousness from God is for Jews and Gentiles - whoever believes and confesses the resurrected Lord Jesus.

Rom10:15-14 lays out the evangelistic process: the proclaimers of the Gospel of Peace are sent > [men] hear from a proclaimer > men believe of/in whom they've heard > men call to whom they've believed.

• Note how this transitions from the Good News of Peace to believing in "whom" (or Him) - which has been a part of all of this context = Lord Jesus.

Rom10:16 I reference frequently because Paul parallels obeying-hupakouō the Good News-Euangelion (attn: @Watchman22) with believing-pisteuō the news-akoē

• believing and obeying are in parallel and interchangeable re: the Good News/Gospel
• The Good News/Gospel is parallel with the news-akoē
  • You can take this parallelism and track the Gospel all the way back through all the words and phrases Paul has used including the rhēma of God (so rhēma/akoē/the pistis/righteousness from God Paul and others are proclaiming).

Apologies if this is not clear. I'm doing it on the fly. Please ask for clarification if and where needed.

 

[Watchman22]

Spot on. That's my perspective on the matter as well....

So the relationship begins in our cooperating with Him in faith-obedience. If you want to call this surrender, I've already explained elsewhere that it's not the wording I'd use, and that Vine's referenced verses for "surrender" didn't make much sense when I looked at them, but I know it's no use talking to you about this

Also agree that Vines definition is wanting....

Well i'm not looking at it from the perspective of hey, lets try this and see if it works. Ive been doing this for 38 years and i know it works. and ive used solid facts to back it up.

The Vines definition of pisteuo is perfect.

The rest is up to each of you.

 

[cv5]

Yield is the word my instructors replacement uses. It just leaves room to internet what we Yielding over to Him. Is it our life, or just our sin, our problems , everything but our life and will.

Come to think of it, perhaps when we do in fact yield, we are (properly) in the RECEIVING things mode, not "surrendering" things lol.

I surrender my garbage to the street corner every Tuesday morning if you get my drift.

 

[studier]

Well i'm not looking at it from the perspective of hey, lets try this and see if it works. Ive been doing this for 38 years and i know it works. and ive used solid facts to back it up.

The Vines definition of pisteuo is perfect.

The rest is up to each of you.

Quite a few fallacious arguments here in attempting to claim authority and thus nothing of substance to discuss.

 

[cv5]

In Rom10 there are several words being used to speak about the same thing and it all originates from the spoken word of God. I'll try reversing what Paul says and begin with God's rhēma rather than reverse into it as Paul does:

• Rom10:17 God's rhēma > through God's rhēma > [God's] news-akoē > from God's news-akoē > the faith-pistis = Rom10:8 the rhēma [of] the faith-pistis [Paul and others] proclaim/declare = the rhēma that is near you - in your mouth and in your heart = Rom10:6 what the righteousness [of/from] faith says

Rom10:10-13 is a series of explanations based from OC Scripture instructing that this rhēma/akoē/the pistis/righteousness from God is for Jews and Gentiles - whoever believes and confesses the resurrected Lord Jesus.

Rom10:15-14 lays out the evangelistic process: the proclaimers of the Gospel of Peace are sent > [men] hear from a proclaimer > men believe of/in whom they've heard > men call to whom they've believed.

• Note how this transitions from the Good News of Peace to believing in "whom" (or Him) - which has been a part of all of this context = Lord Jesus.

Rom10:16 I reference frequently because Paul parallels obeying-hupakouō the Good News-Euangelion (attn: @Watchman22) with believing-pisteuō the news-akoē

• believing and obeying are in parallel and interchangeable re: the Good News/Gospel
• The Good News/Gospel is parallel with the news-akoē
  • You can take this parallelism and track the Gospel all the way back through all the words and phrases Paul has used including the rhēma of God (so rhēma/akoē/the pistis/righteousness from God Paul and others are proclaiming).

Apologies if this is not clear. I'm doing it on the fly. Please ask for clarification if and where needed.

Well spoken and quite clear. Thank you for your kind reply.

And better yet, you have provided me a full docket for Bible study come Monday morning. This is a good thing

 

[Watchman22]

Quite a few fallacious arguments here in attempting to claim authority and thus nothing of substance to discuss.

Well we could discuss what it's like living with the mind of Christ. There's nothing in God's word to parrot about that. You have to have the experience to know the effects it has on a faither.

What happened when you received the mind of Christ? And what affects are you living with every day?

If your understanding of pisteuo is correct, you shouldn't have any problem answering thise questions correctly.