If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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And there is a time to level with you.

I can endure the most complex exegesis. But, you seem a bit presumptuous with interpretation.

You may find this teacher's lessons very helpful in getting a better focus.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

When I attended Bible college, R.B. Thieme, Jr. was recommended to me by the professor of ancient languages there, who was associated with Harvard during WW2 as a translator. Before Harvard went liberal.

There will be no money asked for when ordering lessons.
https://www.rbthieme.org/financialpolicy.html

You got the gift.
Can you give an example of me being "a bit presumptuous with interpretation". Please give an example and then explain what the presumption I am allegedly making is?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
4,381
582
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And there is a time to level with you.

I can endure the most complex exegesis. But, you seem a bit presumptuous with interpretation.

You may find this teacher's lessons very helpful in getting a better focus.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

When I attended Bible college, R.B. Thieme, Jr. was recommended to me by the professor of ancient languages there, who was associated with Harvard during WW2 as a translator. Before Harvard went liberal.

There will be no money asked for when ordering lessons.
https://www.rbthieme.org/financialpolicy.html

You got the gift.
I read Theime's Bible Doctrine Dictionary as far as "adoption". He gets that wrong. Adoption as sons happens at the resurrection. I don't think he is going to be helpful.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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Can you give an example of me being "a bit presumptuous with interpretation". Please give an example and then explain what the presumption I am allegedly making is?
That teacher I showed you will.
He primarily taught the Bible in great detail … And made time to teach about the ancient languages
because pastor-teachers all over the country were listening to him.

R.B. Thieme Jr. was recommended to me by Professor Stan Ashby, Harvard (retired).
After retirement, Professor Ashby taught ancient languages at a Bible college I had attended.

R.B. Thieme took time and showed errors that Greek students made when applicable.
I think you might benefit from exposing yourself to his teachings.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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Can you give an example of me being "a bit presumptuous with interpretation". Please give an example and then explain what the presumption I am allegedly making is?
That teacher I showed you will.

He primarily taught the Bible with great detail … And made time to exegete about the ancient languages.
He explained that he did detail exegesis because pastor-teachers were listening to him.

R.B. Thieme Jr. was recommended to me by Professor Stan Ashby, Harvard (retired).
After retirement, Professor Ashby taught ancient languages at a Bible college I had attended.

R.B. Thieme took the time to show errors that Greek students typically made when applicable.
I think you might benefit from exposing yourself to his teachings.

FYI... RB Thieme had been invited by students to teach at a Bible conference at MIT.
He also spoke at universities at various times.

Not to mention he typically studied eight hours a day, and taught his congregation every evening
of the week, but one. He said he wanted one day off to relax and watch a football game, etc.

A rare, totally dedicated life to teaching the Word of God.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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PaulThomson said:
Can you give an example of me being "a bit presumptuous with interpretation". Please give an example and then explain what the presumption I am allegedly making is?

That teacher I showed you will.
That teacher you showed me didn't tell me I was being a bit presumptuous. You did. Can you back up your own words, rather than hide behind your guru's skirt.
 
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PaulThomson said:
Can you give an example of me being "a bit presumptuous with interpretation". Please give an example and then explain what the presumption I am allegedly making is?



That teacher you showed me didn't tell me I was being a bit presumptuous. You did. Can you back up your own words, rather than hide behind your guru's skirt.
Just listen to him for a month. You'll find out what I speak of.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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Just listen to him for a month. You'll find out what I speak of.
You really should stop accusing people of things you cannot back up just to poison the well. We should not be defending theological claims with rhetorical devices that merely manipulate people emotionally.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
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I read Theime's Bible Doctrine Dictionary as far as "adoption". He gets that wrong. Adoption as sons happens at the resurrection. I don't think he is going to be helpful.
Are you saying you are not born of God and do not have the Spirit of adoption whereby you call God "Dad" and who witnesses to your childhood status?

Romans. 8:14-16
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
4,381
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Are you saying you are not born of God and do not have the Spirit of adoption whereby you call God "Dad" and who witnesses to your childhood status?

Romans. 8:14-16
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.
"The spirit of adoption" which we already have, and "the adoption" itself, i.e. "the redemption of our body, which we are awaiting" are obviously not the same things.

Rom 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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You really should stop accusing people of things you cannot back up just to poison the well. We should not be defending theological claims with rhetorical devices that merely manipulate people emotionally.
Sir.... I made a good suggestion.

If you do not want it? So be it.

You could see for yourself.
That teacher operated on such a level I would fall short, and have to be pretentious, to try to convey the same expertise needed to teach you certain things that he was called to do.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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Sir.... I made a good suggestion.

If you do not want it? So be it.

You could see for yourself.
That teacher operated on such a level I would fall short, and have to be pretentious, to try to convey the same expertise needed to teach you certain things that he was called to do.
You have sold your soul/mind to this Thieme fellow. Your mind has been taken over by his mind virus. You have downgraded yourself from a human being made in God's image to a parrot performing in Thieme's image. You need to take your own mind back and start to think again for yourself. You are allowed to have original thoughts of your own independent of Thieme's curation.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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You have sold your soul/mind to this Thieme fellow. Your mind has been taken over by his mind virus. You have downgraded yourself from a human being made in God's image to a parrot performing in Thieme's image. You need to take your own mind back and start to think again for yourself. You are allowed to have original thoughts of your own independent of Thieme's curation.
If I had a choice? You, or him? Who should I pick?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
4,381
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And, He has!

Look... enough .

You are not ready for him.

Maybe another time.
You are correct. I am not ready to hand my soul/mind over to Mr. Thieme.

But wait. You said,

Genez said:
I can endure the most complex exegesis. But, you seem a bit presumptuous with interpretation.

You haven't given me an example of my presumptuous interpretation.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,345
743
113
You are correct. I am not ready to hand my soul/mind over to Mr. Thieme.

But wait. You said,

Genez said:
I can endure the most complex exegesis. But, you seem a bit presumptuous with interpretation.

You haven't given me an example of my presumptuous interpretation.
Let the Holy Spirit show you...

Have a good Day!
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Pacific NW USA
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on the basis of which (eph' hOi) all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we assume that original sin is a thing, then Romans 5:13-14 would seem to be a lie. Original sin asserts that sin (the sin of Adam) is imputed to all, including those who lived between Adam and Moses. But Rom. 5:13-15 tells us that sin was not being imputed to anyone when there was no law, nevertheless all died when there was no law. So, the cause of their deaths cannot have been imputed sin, whether the sin of Adam or the sin/s of the person dying.
This text says that death for all Adam's progeny was imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin. It does not say Adam's sin was imputed to his progeny.

What does Paul mean by "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin? He means that they had not knowingly broken a law specifically given to them by God. And there were many such sinners before the law: sinners who acted without faith in God, but did not know of the specific divine expectations they were transgressing against.
Adam is a type of Christ, in that the consequence of Adam's sin (death/mortality/limited life spans) was placed upon all his progeny without their being imputed with Adam's own sin; and the consequences of Jesus' righteousness, His resurrection from the dead , is placed on all His progeny (believers), or perhaps all His siblings (mankind) without His own righteousness being imputed to us/them.


So how do others deal with Romans 5:13-15?
Rom 5.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.


1st off, I don't use the word "impute*--it can lead to issues. I don't believe Adam's sin was "imputed* to his children or descendants. What followed Adam's sin was the production of children in his sinful image, transmitting not just DNA but a fallen spiritual nature, susceptible to rebellion against God's word and pride.

But you're right that Adam defied an explicit command, whereas his descendants, before the Law of Moses, simply carried on in their Sin Nature, dying as all sinners do. There was certainly a law in the conscience, because we are all made in God's image. But there was no obvious Law written down for men so that they knew all that they were doing with respect to rebelling against God's word. They were somehwat blind to spiritual truth, having fallen into the world of the "flesh."
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
995
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63
Pacific NW USA
Rom 5.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.


1st off, I don't use the word "impute*--it can lead to issues. I don't believe Adam's sin was "imputed* to his children or descendants. What followed Adam's sin was the production of children in his sinful image, transmitting not just DNA but a fallen spiritual nature, susceptible to rebellion against God's word and pride.

But you're right that Adam defied an explicit command, whereas his descendants, before the Law of Moses, simply carried on in their Sin Nature, dying as all sinners do.

There was certainly a law in the conscience, because we are all made in God's image. But there was no obvious Law written down for men so that they knew all that they were doing with respect to rebelling against God's word. They were somehwat blind to spiritual truth, having fallen into the world of the "flesh."

So the Law was given to Israel so that they would not be blind, and would be able to see and understand God's word for their lives. In this way they could still be God's People, despite their Sin Nature. They could perform ceremonies demonstrating their faith in God's ability to cover their sins and still accept them, despite their imperfections.

Christ became the "2nd Adam* because he undid what Adam did in directly defying God's Word. Christ directly faced the Law of God, or the Word of God, and yet did not sin. In this way he qualified to give sinners the righteousness that he had and could not be disqualified from having because he did not sin.