If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?
- Thread starter PaulThomson
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Before we assert that some statement must mean X, we would be wise to determine all the things the statement could mean, and which of those the statement is likely to mean in the context it was said.
If I read a report from a third party that you said about me,
"He's killing me," then before I hire an expensive defamation lawyer to sue the pants off me, maybe I should find out the context and what those word could possibly mean. Were you in the audience at my stand up comedy show? Were you ordering a second helping of dessert at my popular restaurant? Were you beating me for the fifth straight game of chess for the evening? Were you insisting that to keep my job I must get a Covid shot and I could not afford to lose my job, but I also did not want the medical complications of spike proteins replicating forever in my body organs? Or was I telling someone I had just discovered you have been maliciously slipping poison into my work lunches?
There may be several possible meanings of the Greek text of Romans 5:12. Before insisting on what it must be saying, can you list some of the things it is possibly saying? Or are you simply hitching your wagon to the first translation you read, or the most popular translation among the group you want to remain in favour with?
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Because God loved enough before we believed, He died for us)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Now that we are justified by His death, because He loves us we will be be kept away from suffering His wrath)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (When we were His enemies he reconciled us through our union with His death; it is even more reasonable that now that we are His friends, He will continue to heal us through His life at work in us.)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Not only do we breathe a sigh of relief, but we actually rejoice and celebrate because of the inheritance we now have in our union with him,)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned -
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (therefore men were not dying from imputed sin, whether sin imputed from Adam's behaviour, or sin imputed from a man's own behaviour.)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come -
15 But not as the offence (described in v.12), so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one [man, Adam] many be dead, (as described in v. 12 ] much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
I think both v.13 and v.14 are parenthetical to v.12 and v.15, Connecting v.15 to v.12 reads more naturally in my view.
What is Paul's point in v. 12? He said in v. 8 that we were active sinners, but God loved us and died for us anyway. So, we were seeing God as our enemy, and ourselves as God's enemies; but God was not regarding Himself as our enemy, even though He could see that we were behaving as His enemies. We know that sin came into man's world through Adam's first sin, and we know that God barred access to the tree of life so that no man could keep on eating from it and live forever, and this led to all men dying before reaching 1000 years old. Paul then says that subsequent to death [or subsequent to the sentence of eventual death pronounce to Adam] passing upon all men, all men sinned. We are not told why all men sinned, only that upon/following the death sentence (eph' hOi), all sinned.
All must have sinned because Jesus died for all, however, God was choosing not to impute to those without the law the sins of those without the law as qualifying them for complete destruction in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Since God was not imputing men's sin's to them, but all men were dying, we can conclude that men were not dying for the sins they were committing, but for some other cause. Gen 3. tells us it was because man had proven himself unworthy of endless life, and the evidence was that having access to endless life would encourage him into even more careless sinning and lead to the rapid degeneration of the world man was supposed to manage. God found that even with his life span limited to 1000 years max, man quickly brought the world into almost absolute ruin., bringing the need for a flood and a fresh reboot.
The literal translation of the Greek words of 5:12 -
Rom 5:12 Through-towards this (Διὰ τοῦτο ), in a similar way to how (ὥσπερ) through one man (δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου) the sin (ἡ ἁμαρτία) into the world (εἰς τὸν κόσμον) entered (εἰσῆλθεν, aorist active indicative), and through-from the sin (καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας) the death (ὁ θάνατος), and (καὶ) in this way (οὕτως) into-towards all men (εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους, eis + accusative plural) the death (ὁ θάνατος) went through (διῆλθεν, aorist indicative active), upon which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) all (πάντες, masculine nominative plural) sinned (ἥμαρτον, aorist active indicative)—
My English paraphrase of one possible sense of the Greek text -
Through the above set of truths [we can make the following observations]: in a similar way to how the [first] sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and because of that {first] sin, death [entered the world], and in this way death made its way through into all men, upon which all [men] sinned.
How many different contexts can you come up with where we say "everyone did X" , but the contexts give "everyone did..." a different nuance?
If I say, "Everyone thinks Trump is a jerk"? (Does this mean, "Everyine who thinks Trump is a jerk, thinks Trump is a jerk, and I think that is a large majority."
If I say, "Everyone was dancing at Mike's party"?
If I say, "Everyone went to the theatre to watch a free magic show" ?
If I say, "Everyone has regrets" ?
Does "everyone" always refer to every single person in the world? If not, then can we realistically conclude or assume that "all men (πάντας ἀνθρώπους) and "everyone" (πάντες) in v. 12 necessarily refer to every single person in history? Do we know if Enoch died? Do we know if Elijah died? So can we adamantly assert that "all sinned" means every human sinned" or could it mean, "Subsequent to mortality being imposed generally upon mankind, every human who sinned sinned." In other words, every human who sinned other thsn Adam, sinned after the death sentence was issued because of Adam's sin.
No. I think death is the result of sin, one sin, Adam's sin. Adam's sin brought mortality to all as a general rule. God was free to make exceptions should He choose. I think all human sins happened upon/subsequent to Adam and his descendants being banned from the tree of life, which was the means by which death would come upon men. Paul does not specifically say what we should conclude from this order of events. What we can conclude is open to debate.
Imagine a flock of wild sheep in a cave whose entrance is guarded by a huge ram. A merciless psychopathic wolf, who loves to steal, kill and destroy, comes and wounds the ram with wounds from which the ram will eventually die. Then the wolf bypasses the dying ram and enters the sheepfold. Through mortally wounding the ram, the wolf has passed/entered into all the sheep." ("all the sheep" being a term for the flock as a whole) This is one sense of the Greek proposition eis/into. Now all the sheep are going to die. Death, personified in the wolf, has passed into all the sheep. ("all the sheep" being a term for the flock as a whole).
The cross, through the sinless Christ uniting with us in our death, makes null and void the penalty of death, the imposition of mortality, that was made effective by prohibiting access to the tree of life. And through uniting sinners with Christ in His resurrection from the dead, Christ shares with them His inheritance, including free access to the tree of life, so that they can keep on reaching out and keep on taking from it and keep on eating from it and keep on living, which God prevented all in Adam from doing in Genesis 3. There is no one thing that keeps us alive. As in most circumstances, effects are the result of a combination of causes and means. Ultimately it is union with Christ by grace through faith that effects every benefit we inherit with Him. But not every inherited blessing manifests in our life automatically. Their manifestation is often the result of using means that God has designated.
If I read a report from a third party that you said about me,
"He's killing me," then before I hire an expensive defamation lawyer to sue the pants off me, maybe I should find out the context and what those word could possibly mean. Were you in the audience at my stand up comedy show? Were you ordering a second helping of dessert at my popular restaurant? Were you beating me for the fifth straight game of chess for the evening? Were you insisting that to keep my job I must get a Covid shot and I could not afford to lose my job, but I also did not want the medical complications of spike proteins replicating forever in my body organs? Or was I telling someone I had just discovered you have been maliciously slipping poison into my work lunches?
There may be several possible meanings of the Greek text of Romans 5:12. Before insisting on what it must be saying, can you list some of the things it is possibly saying? Or are you simply hitching your wagon to the first translation you read, or the most popular translation among the group you want to remain in favour with?
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Because God loved enough before we believed, He died for us)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Now that we are justified by His death, because He loves us we will be be kept away from suffering His wrath)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (When we were His enemies he reconciled us through our union with His death; it is even more reasonable that now that we are His friends, He will continue to heal us through His life at work in us.)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Not only do we breathe a sigh of relief, but we actually rejoice and celebrate because of the inheritance we now have in our union with him,)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned -
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (therefore men were not dying from imputed sin, whether sin imputed from Adam's behaviour, or sin imputed from a man's own behaviour.)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come -
15 But not as the offence (described in v.12), so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one [man, Adam] many be dead, (as described in v. 12 ] much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
I think both v.13 and v.14 are parenthetical to v.12 and v.15, Connecting v.15 to v.12 reads more naturally in my view.
What is Paul's point in v. 12? He said in v. 8 that we were active sinners, but God loved us and died for us anyway. So, we were seeing God as our enemy, and ourselves as God's enemies; but God was not regarding Himself as our enemy, even though He could see that we were behaving as His enemies. We know that sin came into man's world through Adam's first sin, and we know that God barred access to the tree of life so that no man could keep on eating from it and live forever, and this led to all men dying before reaching 1000 years old. Paul then says that subsequent to death [or subsequent to the sentence of eventual death pronounce to Adam] passing upon all men, all men sinned. We are not told why all men sinned, only that upon/following the death sentence (eph' hOi), all sinned.
All must have sinned because Jesus died for all, however, God was choosing not to impute to those without the law the sins of those without the law as qualifying them for complete destruction in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Since God was not imputing men's sin's to them, but all men were dying, we can conclude that men were not dying for the sins they were committing, but for some other cause. Gen 3. tells us it was because man had proven himself unworthy of endless life, and the evidence was that having access to endless life would encourage him into even more careless sinning and lead to the rapid degeneration of the world man was supposed to manage. God found that even with his life span limited to 1000 years max, man quickly brought the world into almost absolute ruin., bringing the need for a flood and a fresh reboot.
The literal translation of the Greek words of 5:12 -
Rom 5:12 Through-towards this (Διὰ τοῦτο ), in a similar way to how (ὥσπερ) through one man (δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου) the sin (ἡ ἁμαρτία) into the world (εἰς τὸν κόσμον) entered (εἰσῆλθεν, aorist active indicative), and through-from the sin (καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας) the death (ὁ θάνατος), and (καὶ) in this way (οὕτως) into-towards all men (εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους, eis + accusative plural) the death (ὁ θάνατος) went through (διῆλθεν, aorist indicative active), upon which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) all (πάντες, masculine nominative plural) sinned (ἥμαρτον, aorist active indicative)—
My English paraphrase of one possible sense of the Greek text -
Through the above set of truths [we can make the following observations]: in a similar way to how the [first] sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and because of that {first] sin, death [entered the world], and in this way death made its way through into all men, upon which all [men] sinned.
How many different contexts can you come up with where we say "everyone did X" , but the contexts give "everyone did..." a different nuance?
If I say, "Everyone thinks Trump is a jerk"? (Does this mean, "Everyine who thinks Trump is a jerk, thinks Trump is a jerk, and I think that is a large majority."
If I say, "Everyone was dancing at Mike's party"?
If I say, "Everyone went to the theatre to watch a free magic show" ?
If I say, "Everyone has regrets" ?
Does "everyone" always refer to every single person in the world? If not, then can we realistically conclude or assume that "all men (πάντας ἀνθρώπους) and "everyone" (πάντες) in v. 12 necessarily refer to every single person in history? Do we know if Enoch died? Do we know if Elijah died? So can we adamantly assert that "all sinned" means every human sinned" or could it mean, "Subsequent to mortality being imposed generally upon mankind, every human who sinned sinned." In other words, every human who sinned other thsn Adam, sinned after the death sentence was issued because of Adam's sin.
No. I think death is the result of sin, one sin, Adam's sin. Adam's sin brought mortality to all as a general rule. God was free to make exceptions should He choose. I think all human sins happened upon/subsequent to Adam and his descendants being banned from the tree of life, which was the means by which death would come upon men. Paul does not specifically say what we should conclude from this order of events. What we can conclude is open to debate.
Imagine a flock of wild sheep in a cave whose entrance is guarded by a huge ram. A merciless psychopathic wolf, who loves to steal, kill and destroy, comes and wounds the ram with wounds from which the ram will eventually die. Then the wolf bypasses the dying ram and enters the sheepfold. Through mortally wounding the ram, the wolf has passed/entered into all the sheep." ("all the sheep" being a term for the flock as a whole) This is one sense of the Greek proposition eis/into. Now all the sheep are going to die. Death, personified in the wolf, has passed into all the sheep. ("all the sheep" being a term for the flock as a whole).
The cross, through the sinless Christ uniting with us in our death, makes null and void the penalty of death, the imposition of mortality, that was made effective by prohibiting access to the tree of life. And through uniting sinners with Christ in His resurrection from the dead, Christ shares with them His inheritance, including free access to the tree of life, so that they can keep on reaching out and keep on taking from it and keep on eating from it and keep on living, which God prevented all in Adam from doing in Genesis 3. There is no one thing that keeps us alive. As in most circumstances, effects are the result of a combination of causes and means. Ultimately it is union with Christ by grace through faith that effects every benefit we inherit with Him. But not every inherited blessing manifests in our life automatically. Their manifestation is often the result of using means that God has designated.
Once Adam ate from the knowledge tree, eating also of the tree of life would of allowed Adam to live forever in his physical state. That's exactly what scripture says. Eating of both trees would of unlocked immortality in the physical. The closes thing to immortality in the physical is a immortal jellyfish that isn't joke either.
Gen 3
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Gen 3
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Huh? Where was I insisting on anything?
I was asking you to clarify your position.
I don't think you realise just how confusing you can be in your effort to be critical.
You talk as if being mortal is some form of punishment. Being mortal simply means you have the capacity to die, it doesn't necessarily follow you must die. If Adam's body wasn't created mortal then God saying "you will die" is meaningless. There is only mortal, can die or immortal, can't die, no in between. Mortality is impacted by grace and sin. I'm sure you know which direction each leads.
I can't see how our conversation would have any more benefit at this rate.
Havagoodun. (Aussie speak, you'll need to translate)
I was asking you to clarify your position.
I don't think you realise just how confusing you can be in your effort to be critical.
You talk as if being mortal is some form of punishment. Being mortal simply means you have the capacity to die, it doesn't necessarily follow you must die. If Adam's body wasn't created mortal then God saying "you will die" is meaningless. There is only mortal, can die or immortal, can't die, no in between. Mortality is impacted by grace and sin. I'm sure you know which direction each leads.
I can't see how our conversation would have any more benefit at this rate.
Havagoodun. (Aussie speak, you'll need to translate)
-
1
- Show all
Huh? Where was I insisting on anything?
I was asking you to clarify your position.
I don't think you realise just how confusing you can be in your effort to be critical.
You talk as if being mortal is some form of punishment. Being mortal simply means you have the capacity to die, it doesn't necessarily follow you must die. If Adam's body wasn't created mortal then God saying "you will die" is meaningless. There is only mortal, can die or immortal, can't die, no in between. Mortality is impacted by grace and sin. I'm sure you know which direction each leads.
I can't see how our conversation would have any more benefit at this rate.
Havagoodun. (Aussie speak, you'll need to translate)
I was asking you to clarify your position.
I don't think you realise just how confusing you can be in your effort to be critical.
You talk as if being mortal is some form of punishment. Being mortal simply means you have the capacity to die, it doesn't necessarily follow you must die. If Adam's body wasn't created mortal then God saying "you will die" is meaningless. There is only mortal, can die or immortal, can't die, no in between. Mortality is impacted by grace and sin. I'm sure you know which direction each leads.
I can't see how our conversation would have any more benefit at this rate.
Havagoodun. (Aussie speak, you'll need to translate)
Luk 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour upon which/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾗ) he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof/because of which (ἐφ᾽ οἷς) ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves , that we should not trust upon/because of ourselves (ἐφ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς), but upon/because of God (ἐπὶ τῷ θεῷ) which raiseth the dead
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that upon which/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
Based on the meaning of eph'hOi (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) in the verses above, what is Romans 5:12 really saying?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed into all men, upon which/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) all sinned:
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof/because of which (ἐφ᾽ οἷς) ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves , that we should not trust upon/because of ourselves (ἐφ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς), but upon/because of God (ἐπὶ τῷ θεῷ) which raiseth the dead
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that upon which/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
Based on the meaning of eph'hOi (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) in the verses above, what is Romans 5:12 really saying?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed into all men, upon which/because of which (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ) all sinned:
I have a feeling the meaning I take from it isn't the meaning you take from it.
As far as I'm concerned the "death that passed into all men" that caused us to sin is the 'other law' (Romans 7:23 a genetically formed corruption at work in our bodies) not the "lack of fruit" in our diet.
It began with Adam's sin and ends with our guaranteed sinning because we came into this world as "dead men", not simply the potential to die but actually dead with no spiritual capacity which, is why we have to be born of the Spirit.
We can agree on one thing though. There can be more than one meaning depending on what we determine the words mean.
As far as I'm concerned the "death that passed into all men" that caused us to sin is the 'other law' (Romans 7:23 a genetically formed corruption at work in our bodies) not the "lack of fruit" in our diet.
It began with Adam's sin and ends with our guaranteed sinning because we came into this world as "dead men", not simply the potential to die but actually dead with no spiritual capacity which, is why we have to be born of the Spirit.
We can agree on one thing though. There can be more than one meaning depending on what we determine the words mean.
-
1
- Show all