If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Satan was already fallen before man was created.

Lucifer wanted to rule over angels.
And, to replace the Lord's rightful place in doing so.

Isaiah 14:13-14​
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne (he did not want to establish himself on earth!)
above the stars of God; (the morning star angels)
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.(location where the angels would assemble on the old earth)
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” (he wanted to REPLACE the Lord!) = murder in his heart!

Man would have to worship him on earth.
Yet, it says that Satan wanted worship from those who would be situated above the clouds!
Ez. 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Is. 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Nothing in these two texts indicates that satan fell before He was placed on earth to serve mankind.
 
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No, I would not have *human* death enter in before Man sinned. But yes, *animals* died before Adam sinned. Either that, or you believe all the animals that were created before mankind lived only only vegetables and never died and were producing fossils.

Please note that human sin equals human death--not, human sin equals the death of animals.

Ecclesiastes 3:18​
Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are animals.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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Nothing in these two texts indicates that satan fell before He was placed on earth to serve mankind.
nothing there indicates he was placed on earth to serve man.

but the mineral Eden spoken of in Ezekiel bears no resemblance to the vegetable Eden in Genesis.

how many times has the whole earth been covered with water, and why was the whole earth covered with water?
 

randyk

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Actually. a large part of the scientific community are six day creationists, so I am not utterly rejectng the scientific community by believing Genesis 1-2 as it is written.
I don't believe most scientists by far believe in Creation in 6 *literal* days. Personally, I believe in the Genesis account of 6 days, but believe that the 6 days represent "creation days* which defy any sense of a literal "day."

The 6 days may be, for example, 6 "eras." In Zechariah 14 we read of a "Day of the Lord" in which time is not subject to normal rules of physics. There is no better example of physical laws not applying than in an act of Creation!

I have no clue whether God started with two elephants, male and female, and built up the herd over time--certainly not in "one day." That's the way He did it with Man, not creating an entire city at once.

So if animals built up herds over time, then you would be wrong to claim that animals were created in one day, or that birds, fish, and even insects were created in massive quantities, all in a single day. And yet, God indicated that in a single "day" he created large quantities of creatures.

Would creatues, then, that live off of the deaths of other animals, somehow exist without their food until Man sinned? And all of the fossils were animals that died *after* Man's sin?

Do you think spiders and insects that kill other insects did not do so until Man sinned?
 

randyk

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Ecclesiastes 3:18​
Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are animals.
Eccl 3.18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

I believe the author is comparing people and animals and not calling people "animals." The idea clearly is to show the futility of life if there is not something eternal to live for.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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Ez. 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Is. 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Nothing in these two texts indicates that satan fell before He was placed on earth to serve mankind.
The term 'Garden of God' was never used for the garden that God placed Adam and the woman in.

There was a prior created (prehistoric) world on earth.... A parallel world in certain ways. The world that got destroyed by God. Noted when reading "tohu wa-bohu" is analyzed by astute scholars translating Genesis 1:2.

I am pretty sure by now you will find some way to scramble that egg as well.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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Are you saying that there are verses that can be flipped in opposite directions? In the original language?

Or, that you know how to make them appear that way?
Obviously, that is the case, because Christians take opposite meanings from one and the same verse. A verse which one Christian says clearly states eternal security, another Christian will say does not clearly state eternal security; and a verse which one Christian says clearly states one can lose one's salvation, another Christian will say does not clearly state that at all.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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The term 'Garden of God' was never used for the garden that God placed Adam and the woman in.

There was a prior created (prehistoric) world on earth.... A parallel world in certain ways. The world that got destroyed by God. Noted when reading "tohu wa-bohu" is analyzed by astute scholars translating Genesis 1:2.

I am pretty sure by now you will find some way to scramble that egg as well.
Your epistemic pride appears to be indomitable.

When God destroys this present world and separates all that wich opposes Christ from all that which is willingly subject to Christ, are you of the opinion that God is going to have a planet within this unified-in-Christ new heaven and earth, where he will place the condemned humans and demons? Why do you assume that the angels and demons present in this age were not created in the heavens during the six days of creation? What proof do you have that they are holdovers from a previous heaven and earth?
 
Oct 29, 2023
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I don't believe most scientists by far believe in Creation in 6 *literal* days. Personally, I believe in the Genesis account of 6 days, but believe that the 6 days represent "creation days* which defy any sense of a literal "day."

The 6 days may be, for example, 6 "eras." In Zechariah 14 we read of a "Day of the Lord" in which time is not subject to normal rules of physics. There is no better example of physical laws not applying than in an act of Creation!

I have no clue whether God started with two elephants, male and female, and built up the herd over time--certainly not in "one day." That's the way He did it with Man, not creating an entire city at once.

So if animals built up herds over time, then you would be wrong to claim that animals were created in one day, or that birds, fish, and even insects were created in massive quantities, all in a single day. And yet, God indicated that in a single "day" he created large quantities of creatures.

Would creatures, then, that live off of the deaths of other animals, somehow exist without their food until Man sinned? And all of the fossils were animals that died *after* Man's sin?

Do you think spiders and insects that kill other insects did not do so until Man sinned?
Truth is not determined by majority vote.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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nothing there indicates he was placed on earth to serve man.

but the mineral Eden spoken of in Ezekiel bears no resemblance to the vegetable Eden in Genesis.

how many times has the whole earth been covered with water, and why was the whole earth covered with water?
The spiritual realm occupies the same space as the physical realm, but we just do not normally see what is spiritual. Elisha's servant had his eyesight enhanced so He could see the usually invisible spiritual realm, and he saw the hosts of angels assembled on the mountains. You don't think it is possible that Lucifer was able to interact with both dimensions, and the "mineral Eden", as you call it, was the invisible spiritual dimension to the same space as the Garden of Eden occupied? It is possible, yes?
 

posthuman

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The spiritual realm occupies the same space as the physical realm, but we just do not normally see what is spiritual. Elisha's servant had his eyesight enhanced so He could see the usually invisible spiritual realm, and he saw the hosts of angels assembled on the mountains. You don't think it is possible that Lucifer was able to interact with both dimensions, and the "mineral Eden", as you call it, was the invisible spiritual dimension to the same space as the Garden of Eden occupied? It is possible, yes?
but when was Satan the principle being in Eden?
 

randyk

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Truth is not determined by majority vote.
Then you're refuting your own position, because you said, "Actually. a large part of the scientific community are six day creationists ..." I was just challenging your sense that your statement is true when it is understood that even Christian scientists who believe in the 6 days of Creation all believe in 6 *literal* days.
 

PaulThomson

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but when was Satan the principle being in Eden?
It seems to me that Satan was the leader of the angels commissioned to serve mankind and the leader of angelic worship of God. I would presume he was given that role before he corrupted Adam and Eve.
 

PaulThomson

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Then you're refuting your own position, because you said, "Actually. a large part of the scientific community are six day creationists ..." I was just challenging your sense that your statement is true when it is understood that even Christian scientists who believe in the 6 days of Creation all believe in 6 *literal* days.
I am not following your argument, sorry.
 

randyk

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I am not following your argument, sorry.
You most certainly are not. I said the scientific consensus may be both Christian or not, 6 day Creation or not. And you indicated that since a high number of scientists are Christian and believe in a 6 day Creation that you are not against the scientific consensus.

And I'm saying that the Chrisian consensus that believes in a 6 day Creation do not all believe in 6 literal days of Creation. Some believe that the 6 days represent 6 eras--not literal 24 hour days.

But you insisted that you're not interested in majority opinions regardless. So I asked why you were even concerned to not be against the scientific consensus that was Christian and is for a 6 day Creation if you have no regard for a consensus at all?

But if you're only interested in commenting, but not answering, I can see why you're side-tracked and unable to understand. You don't have to involve yourself in my comments at all, if that's the case.
 

PaulThomson

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You most certainly are not. I said the scientific consensus may be both Christian or not, 6 day Creation or not. And you indicated that since a high number of scientists are Christian and believe in a 6 day Creation that you are not against the scientific consensus.

And I'm saying that the Chrisian consensus that believes in a 6 day Creation do not all believe in 6 literal days of Creation. Some believe that the 6 days represent 6 eras--not literal 24 hour days.

But you insisted that you're not interested in majority opinions regardless. So I asked why you were even concerned to not be against the scientific consensus that was Christian and is for a 6 day Creation if you have no regard for a consensus at all?

But if you're only interested in commenting, but not answering, I can see why you're side-tracked and unable to understand. You don't have to involve yourself in my comments at all, if that's the case.
No, YOU said that I needed to utterly reject the scientific community to disbelieve that animals ate animals before Man appeared on the earth. If some of the scientific community are six day creationist and believe that death came to the planet at the fall of Adam, then I do not need to UTTERLY REJECT the scientific community to believe the same.

randyk said:
Unless you utterly reject the scientific community, which I don't, animals ate animals well before Man appeared on this earth. I do question many things that scientists say in theory, without real supporting evidence. But some things seem pretty obvious to me.
Actually. a large part of the scientific community are six day creationists, so I am not utterly rejecting the scientific community by believing Genesis 1-2 as it is written.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Yes but access to the tree of life was prohibited to all because of Adam's sin. All did not become morally corrupt from birth because of Adam's sin.
before adam ate the fruit mankind didn’t know both good and evil . This part is what changed

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe aren’t supposed to operate from the conflicted knowledge of good and evil polar opposites . We were created to just listen to what our creator said and believe it and walk by it trusting him.

awe weren’t equipped To handle the knowledge of good and evil but were made to trust Gods determination between good and evil and just listen to what he said to us. That’s the issue to know both then restores us to much pose between the two

“All did not become morally corrupt from birth because of Adam's sin”

right we can look at cain and abel to see that they be was a righteous man who did righteous works and was accepted of God the other did wicked works and wasn’t accepted by God

God calls cain to repentqnce and to do what’s right but he rejects that and kills his brother because his brother was righteous

“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

clearly they weren’t both evil morally but good and evil is now within mankind cain and abel make a perfect look at it our issue now days after all this time because of what Adam did is this issue that Jesus can save us from

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. ( because mankind knows both good and evil but we aren’t supposed to )

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what Adam did was put mankind in a position where both good and evil pull at us through our mind and body . That’s why God gave them the first commandment man isn’t made to operate from that knowledge of good and evil

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See God didn’t make us to know good and evil because it will corrupt us

“the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:”

he knew we were headed here now

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We we’re never made to know good and evil but to live by what God told us


“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

randyk

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No, YOU said that I needed to utterly reject the scientific community to disbelieve that animals ate animals before Man appeared on the earth. If some of the scientific community are six day creationist and believe that death came to the planet at the fall of Adam, then I do not need to UTTERLY REJECT the scientific community to believe the same.
I quoted what you said. You said two incompatible things, from my perspective. You said...
1) You accept the scientific community which has a large group believing in the 6 day Creation, and
2) You reject any notion of a majority at all, since biblical truth does not require a majority.

I accept some elements in these statements. But on their face they are incompatible. If you don't accept the need for a "majority vote," then you don't need to be in association with a Creationist consensus. And though I accept that there are many creationists in the scientific community, I do not think that the largest group of creationists are "literalists" with respect to their notion of the "6 days.*

So yes, in my view you must reject the majority of scientists, Christian and non-Christian, in believing in a literal 6 days Creation. But now you're changing the equation--you're now saying that you only have to accept a small part of the scientific community who believes in a literal 6 day Creation. Either that, or you still don't understand?