Does One Receive the Holy Ghost the Moment they Believe in Jesus?

[Aaron56]

After being shown scripture that shows this is incorrect you stated they are both gifts.

No such thing was presented. I was explaining what the scripture meant.

There is the baptism by the Holy Spirit. This is where we are placed in the Body of Christ according to Him.
There is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus does this. This is for power.

These are elementary doctrines.

 

[Aaron56]

It's important to note that baptism is not a religious term. It's a term of art which literally means "to immerse". If you were washing a floor with a bucket of water and a sponge you would routinely baptize the sponge into the water, you would immerse it. Then, the sponge would absorb the water into itself by the nature of the sponge. It would then be useful in your hand as a tool for cleaning the floor.

Baptisms, as written in the New Testament, are similar. Before I go on it is important to note that there is more than one baptism. That is why Hebrews 6 records this: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits."

These are all elementary principles. We see here that baptisms is plural so we are to know that there are at least 2. There are 4 actually but we are dealing with only 2 in this discussion.

Some might wonder, "What of the verse that says there is one baptism?"

Well, that is Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This seems to be a contradictory statement but it is not. Here, context is important. This verse is set within the context of spiritual unity. Let me put the whole section here:

Ephesians 4:1-6 "I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Here, Paul is pleading with the saints in Ephesus, to keep the "unity of the Spirit". That is a principle of the elementary doctrine of baptism by the Spirit. That is the baptism that unifies the many members of Christ into one body. That is the "one baptism" to which Paul is referring. How can it not be the baptism of the Spirit? That baptism is about receiving power, in unique and diverse ways, to carry out your calling in Christ. That is a baptism of power (Jesus Christ immerses you in power and you soak it up, if you will) performed by Jesus Christ from heaven. However, when the Holy Spirit baptizes, He immerses you into one body, the body of Christ, according to God's plan from the beginning of the world.

Let's look at the reference.

1 Corinthians 12: 12-14 "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many."

Why does the Spirit do this work? Because "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

The Spirit knows our place within the Body. In the earth, men receive their place because of influence or money or power. Not so in the Body of Christ. The Spirit knows where each of us fits into the One Body. We are the members of that one Body. As an aside, THIS is the assembling we are not to forsake in Hebrews 10:25 "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." This is not meeting together, this is knowing each other in the Spirit. Why? Because who we are, which is to say who God made us to be, is known by the Spirit of God.

If you had received the baptism “by” the Spirit you would have been confident that who you are, God has made you to be and has assembled you into the body because the context of the body of Christ was always the context in which God envisioned that you would live out your destiny. The baptism “by” the Spirit is the confirmation that there is only one body and if you are baptized by the Spirit in this fashion you would have always known that there is only one body.

Be blessed,
Aaron56

 

[Wansvic]

Peter did not preach that to Cornelius ... do you believe Peter's gospel?

Peter and Paul's message is the same. All components, ie, belief, repentance, water baptism, etc., of the message appear in each conversion experience. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) The only thing that differs is when God saw fit to indwell the people. What is clear, however, is that receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is not optional. What is interesting is the biblical records provide additional answers as to God's timing in pouring out His Spirit and who He chose to use to assist in the case of the Samaritans.

In the case of the Gentiles, it is very possible that Peter would have been hesitant to allow the group to be water baptized if not for God pouring His Spirit into them first as was done on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 10:47-48, 11:17-18)

As for the Samaritans, I pondered why God did not use Philip to lay hands on the group to receive the Holy Ghost immediately after they believed his message and got water baptized in Jesus' name. Days later I received an answer. Consider that it was John who wanted Samaritans to be destroyed by fire from Heaven for their unwillingness to receive Jesus as recorded in Luke 9:52-56. Jesus reprimanded John. Jesus told John that He came to Save not to destroy. And it is interesting that this same John, along with Peter, was used to assist people in actually receiving the life giving Holy Spirit. Significant? Yes. This connection makes it clear that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is when a person is indwelled as well as empowered to walk in God's ways.

Paul's interaction with the Ephesus disciples points out that receiving the Holy Ghost does not automatically occur when a person believes the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Paul tells them about Jesus and explains that they must to be re-baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. Being water baptized by John the Baptist was the introduction to what would later require the use of the name above all names. After the group obeyed Paul and got re-baptized in the name of the Lord they received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues.

 

[Wansvic]

That verse in John 3:5 is not referring to water baptism. Jesus was answering Nicodemus' question concerning being born again. Nicodemus asked "how can a man be born a second time when he is old ? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ?" Verse 6 clarifies this "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus was referring to the natural birth as being born of water not baptism in water.

If not, please explain why all groups of people were instructed to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) This truth lines up perfectly with what Jesus told Nicodemus: Unless a man is born of water and Spirit they cannot ENTER the kingdom of God.

 

[Aaron56]

If not, please explain why all groups of people were instructed to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) This truth lines up perfectly with what Jesus told Nicodemus: Unless a man is born of water and Spirit they cannot ENTER the kingdom of God.

You know, in all my time here since July, I have never given a negative emoji for anyone's post. That's because I am not trying to win an argument. I am just presenting the truth as I know it. If I am to be sincere, I actually have no other recourse but to present the truth as it has been revealed to me.

Water baptism is associated with death not birth. Burial, actually.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

Nowhere, in the scriptures, is water baptism associated with birth.

The problem is that because we have in our heads "logically water implies an activity in water like baptism", it's hard to overcome that mindset because we are already vested in it and not even the scriptures can upset the traditions of men. Revelation is required to upset traditions of men. Yet, because men have created traditions that say "people cannot hear from God directly" they insulate themselves from any correction the Lord would bring.

The "water" here, is the word of God.

Peter sums it up nicely:

1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

The same phrase is used "born again" so it is the same context. The water IS the word of God.

Here, Christ, who is the husband of the church, instructs men to use the word in the SAME WAY HE USES IT FOR US.

Ephesians 5:25,26 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word..."

So, @lawrence101 was correct in that "water" was not a reference to water baptism. It is also not a reference to natural birth. It is a reference to the word of God that Christ uses to wash us so that we might walk in His ways. When we walk in His ways we enter the Kingdom (The kingdom of God... is righteous, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit). I am a proponent of water baptism because it saves us from the pursuit of our enemy but it does not save us so that we might go to heaven when we die. Water baptism is the burial of the dead: those who have died by surrendering their will to the Lord. Perhaps I will write more about this later.

Peace,
Aaron56

 

[Wansvic]

...Before I go on it is important to note that there is more than one baptism. That is why Hebrews 6 records this: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits."
...

The foundation baptisms are presented initially on the Day of Pentecost and later in various conversion experiences. They are water and Holy Ghost.

 

[Aaron56]

The foundation baptisms are presented initially on the Day of Pentecost and later in various conversion experiences. They are water and Holy Ghost.

I understand how someone could conflate "by" and "of" the Spirit. But the baptism of "fire" is so obvious. Also, this is not the tongues of fire as seen on the disciples at Pentecost. These are the fiery trials that are ordained for the saints.

 

[Wansvic]

You know, in all my time here since July, I have never given a negative emoji for anyone's post. That's because I am not trying to win an argument. I am just presenting the truth as I know it. If I am to be sincere, I actually have no other recourse but to present the truth as it has been revealed to me.

Water baptism is associated with death not birth. Burial, actually.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

Nowhere, in the scriptures, is water baptism associated with birth.

The problem is that because we have in our heads "logically water implies an activity in water like baptism", it's hard to overcome that mindset because we are already vested in it and not even the scriptures can upset the traditions of men. Revelation is required to upset traditions of men. Yet, because men have created traditions that say "people cannot hear from God directly" they insulate themselves from any correction the Lord would bring.

The "water" here, is the word of God.

Peter sums it up nicely:

1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

The same phrase is used "born again" so it is the same context. The water IS the word of God.

Here, Christ, who is the husband of the church, instructs men to use the word in the SAME WAY HE USES IT FOR US.

Ephesians 5:25,26 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word..."

So, @lawrence101 was correct in that "water" was not a reference to water baptism. It is also not a reference to natural birth. It is a reference to the word of God that Christ uses to wash us so that we might walk in His ways. When we walk in His ways we enter the Kingdom (The kingdom of God... is righteous, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit). I am a proponent of water baptism because it saves us from the pursuit of our enemy but it does not save us so that we might go to heaven when we die. Water baptism is the burial of the dead: those who have died by surrendering their will to the Lord. Perhaps I will write more about this later.

Peace,
Aaron56

I didn't not mean to offend. The emoji is the only one available for use when one does not agree with what is presented. And I don't see scripture aligning with your understanding.

Water in the John 3:5 record is in fact water baptism. This is confirmed by each of the conversion experiences recorded. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) Every single one includes the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus as well as receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Clearly the word provides us with these instructions in order to gain entrance into the kingdom of God.

 

[Wansvic]

I understand how someone could conflate "by" and "of" the Spirit. But the baptism of "fire" is so obvious. Also, this is not the tongues of fire as seen on the disciples at Pentecost. These are the fiery trials that are ordained for the saints.

You neglect to see the point being made. The foundation baptisms are presented initially on the Day of Pentecost and later in various conversion experiences. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) They are water and Holy Ghost. These baptisms are exclusive to the rebirth experience. The fiery trials have nothing to do with one's rebirth.

 

[Aaron56]

For some, anything that has to do with the Holy Spirit, they believe, has to be done spontaneously. Otherwise they do not believe that it is a true work of God. This is not true. Baptism “by” the Spirit, when Jesus baptizes you with the Holy Spirit, that may occur spontaneously, and I know that for a number of believers it happened that way. But you see the thing about that is you cannot manufacture a spontaneous event. So, what if you've been taught the need for the baptism of the Spirit, you desire the baptism of the Spirit, what do you do then? Since you cannot generate a spontaneous baptism how do you resolve the question? Well, thankfully God knew of that dilemma and has provided a specific way by which you might obtain baptism by the Spirit. To explain it we will have to touch on another elementary doctrine: the laying on of hands.

Now in Acts chapter 8 there are some brethren in Samaria, Phillip has gone to the city of Samaria and he's preaching the good news to them. There is a great revival that breaks out in that city. There were signs and wonders, miraculous things had occurred and demons were driven out, paralytics were healed, and so on and so forth, and there is great joy in the city.

We’ll pick up with Simon the magician in Acts 8:9-13. “Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, ‘This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.’ They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.”

Then, Simon offers to buy the Holy Spirit for money.

“When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, ‘Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.’”

He was a sorcerer but prior to his offer to buy the Holy Spirit, the gift of the Spirit, for money it says this in verse 13,

"Simon himself believed and was baptized and he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles which he had done."

Now, go back just a moment to verse 11,

"..the people followed Simon the magician because he was a great one and he amazed the people."

But after they saw what Philip did in support of the preaching of the Kingdom, it says this,

"But when the people believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized."

So, everybody saw what Philip had done and was amazed at the great works of God. Now it's clear that they believed and they were baptized.

Here's where I'm going with this:

So, the word of this came to Jerusalem. When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When Peter and John arrived in Samaria, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them, they have simply believed in the name of Jesus.

And then this is recorded:

Verse 17 "Then Peter and John placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit."


Did you see that? The brethren in Jerusalem heard that in Samaria, as a result of the preaching of Philip, many of the people already believed and were baptized. But the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them.

Now this is interesting because Acts 2:38 says "If you repent and are baptized you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here’s the quote: “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So did they receive the Spirit or not?
In an earlier post, I distinguished between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I distinguished it by looking at John 20:22 in which it is written, “Jesus breathed on his disciples and he said ‘receive ye the Holy Ghost.’”

Obviously at that point they received the Holy Ghost. But Jesus ascended to heaven and then he sent the Holy Spirit to baptize them. (I won’t go into this again you can jump back up and read it.)

Clearly, while Jesus was on the earth He did not baptize his disciples with the Holy Spirit, nor did He baptize anyone else. He had breathed on his disciples to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the change of identity, but to these same disciples upon whom He had breathed, who had received the indwelling Holy Spirit as a seal guaranteeing that they were children of God, to these very ones, He had given now the instruction to go to Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the baptism of the Spirit. And they waited for 10 days, maybe more.

So, the baptism of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit are two separate things. The indwelling confirms that you are a child of God; the baptism is for empowerment. And the indwelling may occur prior to the baptism.

I'll continue...

 

[Aaron56]

Now in Acts 10 we come across another incident of the Holy Spirit baptizing people. There it's the house of Cornelius and what we observed was that before they received the indwelling they received the baptism, because Peter had not even gotten the invitation yet.

Peter relates to Cornelius the episode in which he was in the house of Simon the tanner in Joppa, when he saw the sheet come down out of heaven containing all manner of unclean things, and when he objected to the voice that said, "Rise Peter, kill and eat", the Holy Spirit said to him, "What I have cleansed, do not call common or unclean". The reference is Acts 10:9-15

Immediately after the vision ceased, some men had arrived from Caesarea where Peter was, to invite him to come to the house of Cornelius. And Peter made the connection that the thing described as common and unclean and presented through the metaphor of the sheet from heaven containing all manner of unclean things, and Peter's reaction was meant to prepare Peter for the advent of the Gentiles into the Kingdom.

But even so, Peter was not a willing convert. He went reluctantly and he went under duress. He even took some Jewish brethren with him just in case. When he comes to the house of Cornelius, he says to Cornelius,

Acts 10:27,28 “‘You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.’”

Then the Word says, Peter began to speak to Cornelius, and while Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius, and Peter observed,

“‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.’”

So when Peter goes back to Jerusalem to explain himself to the Jewish brethren in Jerusalem, he basically says "When I saw that the Holy Spirit had fallen on them as on us in the beginning, who was I to resist God?"

So, my point is: there are times when the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes first. It happened that way with the house of Cornelius. It happened that way with the Jews on the day of Pentecost, and it happened that way also with the Jewish believers on the day of Pentecost. It happened among the 12 disciples first, first the indwelling and then the baptism. It happened to the first Jewish converts, the 160, when the multitude came together: first, they also received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but also at the same time they received the baptism of the Spirit because they were properly taught. In the house of Cornelius, however, the order is reversed. Because Peter did not intend to admit the Gentiles into the Kingdom, so the Holy Spirit had to convince him in a manner that was so obvious that even Peter could not miss the point. The Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius in the same manner in which he fell upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. When Peter saw that, he said, "Who was I to resist God?”

In the city of Samaria, there were a number of brethren who had believed and were baptized in water. Because they did, they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But the brethren in Jerusalem knew that they had not yet received the baptism of the Spirit, so they sent Peter and John to them to baptize them in the Spirit. When Peter and John arrived there, they proceeded to lay hands on them that they might receive the baptism of the Spirit. So, what is the conclusion relative to how you might receive the baptism of the Spirit?

First, if you are already a believer in Jesus Christ, you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, you are saved, you are going to heaven, you're a child of God, because the Holy Spirit is the seal guaranteeing your salvation and your status as a child of God. If you lack power, it is because you do not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit, according to Jesus, is meant to result in power.

So that being so, you may receive the baptism of the Spirit in one of two ways: first, by a spontaneous event. But, when you come to the ordinary conclusion that you need to be baptized in the Spirit, there is a regular way in which it might be administered. And that is what Acts 8 teaches us. The apostles in Jerusalem, knowing the need for the brethren in Samaria to be baptized in the Spirit sent Peter and John up. And when they came they were faithful to their mandate and they laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Spirit, followed of course in the chapter by signs and wonders.

What about the baptism “by” the Spirit, where the Holy Spirit places you into the body? Well, that is automatic. There is nothing you have to do about that. The Holy Spirit automatically puts you into the body of Christ once you are saved as that part of the body that you are. Now, if you don't know what part of the body you are, if you don't know who you are in the Lord, then ask the Holy Spirit and He will show you. Typically, He will show you what your gifts are and he will show you what your callings are. If He delays showing that to you then do not be upset or do not feel passed over. Do not feel frustrated by it because all that that means is that you are not ready yet to receive it because you might well be one of those kinds of people who, that if you know that God has made you to be something, you will run out and try to do it before he has prepared you to have what it takes to sustain what he has made you to be. So, if he doesn't show you who you are, then wait. He will show it to you, He is faithful. He is wholly invested in you being who you are. He is your Father.

Grace and Peace,
Aaron56

 

[Wansvic]

Did you see that? The brethren in Jerusalem heard that in Samaria, as a result of the preaching of Philip, many of the people already believed and were baptized. But the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them.

Now this is interesting because Acts 2:38 says "If you repent and are baptized you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here’s the quote: “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Peter's statement in no way indicates the hearers were to receive anything other than what the group had just witnessed the 120 in the upper room receive; the Holy Ghost. Peter had just clarified that what the people were seeing and hearing was in fact evidence of their receiving the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:33-40
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
KJV

 

[Wansvic]

Now in Acts 10 we come across another incident of the Holy Spirit baptizing people. There it's the house of Cornelius and what we observed was that before they received the indwelling they received the baptism, because Peter had not even gotten the invitation yet.

Peter relates to Cornelius the episode in which he was in the house of Simon the tanner in Joppa, when he saw the sheet come down out of heaven containing all manner of unclean things, and when he objected to the voice that said, "Rise Peter, kill and eat", the Holy Spirit said to him, "What I have cleansed, do not call common or unclean". The reference is Acts 10:9-15

Immediately after the vision ceased, some men had arrived from Caesarea where Peter was, to invite him to come to the house of Cornelius. And Peter made the connection that the thing described as common and unclean and presented through the metaphor of the sheet from heaven containing all manner of unclean things, and Peter's reaction was meant to prepare Peter for the advent of the Gentiles into the Kingdom.

But even so, Peter was not a willing convert. He went reluctantly and he went under duress. He even took some Jewish brethren with him just in case. When he comes to the house of Cornelius, he says to Cornelius,

Acts 10:27,28 “‘You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.’”

Then the Word says, Peter began to speak to Cornelius, and while Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius, and Peter observed,

“‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.’”

So when Peter goes back to Jerusalem to explain himself to the Jewish brethren in Jerusalem, he basically says "When I saw that the Holy Spirit had fallen on them as on us in the beginning, who was I to resist God?"

So, my point is: there are times when the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes first. It happened that way with the house of Cornelius. It happened that way with the Jews on the day of Pentecost, and it happened that way also with the Jewish believers on the day of Pentecost. It happened among the 12 disciples first, first the indwelling and then the baptism. It happened to the first Jewish converts, the 160, when the multitude came together: first, they also received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but also at the same time they received the baptism of the Spirit because they were properly taught. In the house of Cornelius, however, the order is reversed. Because Peter did not intend to admit the Gentiles into the Kingdom, so the Holy Spirit had to convince him in a manner that was so obvious that even Peter could not miss the point. The Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius in the same manner in which he fell upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. When Peter saw that, he said, "Who was I to resist God?”

In the city of Samaria, there were a number of brethren who had believed and were baptized in water. Because they did, they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But the brethren in Jerusalem knew that they had not yet received the baptism of the Spirit, so they sent Peter and John to them to baptize them in the Spirit. When Peter and John arrived there, they proceeded to lay hands on them that they might receive the baptism of the Spirit. So, what is the conclusion relative to how you might receive the baptism of the Spirit?

First, if you are already a believer in Jesus Christ, you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, you are saved, you are going to heaven, you're a child of God, because the Holy Spirit is the seal guaranteeing your salvation and your status as a child of God. If you lack power, it is because you do not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit, according to Jesus, is meant to result in power.

So that being so, you may receive the baptism of the Spirit in one of two ways: first, by a spontaneous event. But, when you come to the ordinary conclusion that you need to be baptized in the Spirit, there is a regular way in which it might be administered. And that is what Acts 8 teaches us. The apostles in Jerusalem, knowing the need for the brethren in Samaria to be baptized in the Spirit sent Peter and John up. And when they came they were faithful to their mandate and they laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Spirit, followed of course in the chapter by signs and wonders.

What about the baptism “by” the Spirit, where the Holy Spirit places you into the body? Well, that is automatic. There is nothing you have to do about that. The Holy Spirit automatically puts you into the body of Christ once you are saved as that part of the body that you are. Now, if you don't know what part of the body you are, if you don't know who you are in the Lord, then ask the Holy Spirit and He will show you. Typically, He will show you what your gifts are and he will show you what your callings are. If He delays showing that to you then do not be upset or do not feel passed over. Do not feel frustrated by it because all that that means is that you are not ready yet to receive it because you might well be one of those kinds of people who, that if you know that God has made you to be something, you will run out and try to do it before he has prepared you to have what it takes to sustain what he has made you to be. So, if he doesn't show you who you are, then wait. He will show it to you, He is faithful. He is wholly invested in you being who you are. He is your Father.

Grace and Peace,
Aaron56

You state your belief. But what the word actually states is what people will be judged upon. And no where in scripture does it reflect there are two Holy Ghost baptisms. There is one and it is evidenced by speaking in tongues. The word will always confirm itself with 2-3 scriptures.

 

[Aaron56]

There is one and it is evidenced by speaking in tongues.

Ah, I see where you're from now. It makes sense why you cannot receive what I am writing. It is for the others, then.

 

[SophieT]

if anyone wants to know why wansvic is so hung up on water and speaking in tongues:

wansvic is hung up on baptism by water and speaking in tongues...myself and others have had this conversation with him mulitple times. during the last long and tired thread, it finally was aserted that he is Oneness Pentecostal and the beliefs he espouses are of the Oneness Pentecostal persuasion

that means, baptize in Jesus name only and if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved

even worse, even if you do speak in tongues but are not baptized, you are not saved (looking for that in the thread and will post since I had that particular exchange with him)

here is an excerpt from that thread (follow blue link) wherein he states nowhere in scripture are we told to baptize in any other way save the name of Jesus only (verse from Matthew follows to show this is wrong) it needs to be understood that Oneness people are called Oneness because they do not believe in the Trinity so baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would be wrong according to them

excerpt:

Being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is not the same as being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus gave the command to baptize in a singular name, and the apostles obeyed the command and baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

There is not one record of anyone being baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That's because the apostles knew the name was in fact Jesus. If you don't believe that do a search of the entire bible. #704


Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

so wansvic, your argument is with the word as you are so fond of telling others

 

[SophieT]

and here is another from that same thread wherein wansvic states again the error that water washes away sin

Exactly. It was because of God's grace that mankind was provided with a way to be saved. Humanity did nothing to deserve it. It is because of Jesus' sacrifice that individual's sins can be remitted through obedience to the God-given command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[SophieT]

this is not the exact post I was thinking of, but it does say that unless you are water baptized, even if you do speak in tongues, you are still not saved # 594 same thread

As I've pointed out numerous times, the bible makes it clear that remission of sin takes place upon obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The spiritual rebirth only becomes a reality after all of the following have taken place; belief in Jesus, repentance, water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You misunderstand what I was referring to. I agree with you that both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are necessary and seen in the account. Aaron56 stated in Post #117 that receiving the Holy Ghost upon believing the gospel message is the gift, whereas the Spirit baptism is a separate experience given in order to receive power.

My point was that the word clearly expresses that the gift of the Holy Ghost is the Spirit baptism.

Amen the reference baptism of the spirit is indeed receiving the Holy Ghost sorry I misunderstood

water baptism is about what God said it’s for . When we’re baptized we are recognized by God to have died for our sins with Christ. So they are stoned for and remitted justice is fulfilled because we died for our sins in Christ

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

receiving the spirit is about the resurrection power of life and freedom from sin . where as water baptism is being put to death with Jesus for our sins which is what delivers us from the law. once the sinner dies the law ends upon them it’s been fulfilled the sinner has now died to the law and have been raised up in the spiritual covenant of The gospel the covenant defines by the new word we belong to what Paul calls “ the law of the spirit of life In Christ “
Which causes us to steer bearing the fruits of the spirit

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

from the gospel word , the message and teachings his word to his disciples we can bear the right kind of fruits rather tHan what the law caused us to produce

So before we get water baltized we’re under the law and in this boat

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Before baptism we’re recognized as a flesh beings under the law but after we’re recognized to have died in the flesh and then the new birth of the Holy Ghost and have the doctrine of the spirit and life being recognized as having died already with Jesus d having been raised to a new life devoted to him and this new doctrine produces fruits of the spirit and eternal life

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The ot can’t do that but the gospel can do that so we’re being baptized in water to remit our sins and remove the unbearable yoke of the law of sin and death and the spirit is raising us up to the new doctrine of The spirit the word of the Gospel

 

[Evmur]

I'm guessing the Holy ghost is when people jump and shout and praise god. I'm a more silent praiser.

It is alright to be a more silent believer, the problem starts when silent believers seek to impose their silent ways upon us more rowdy folks or if we rowdy folks would seek to force everybody to jump up and down and do holy cartwheels ...

I'm a fairly placid kind of fella mesself, I am English after all, but I must tell you ... there are times.

I have been in meetings where I have staggered and reeled like a drunken man such was the glory of God in those meetings.

 

[infinitekhanol]

I am always surprised when people fail to see that obedience to God's commands have the ability to produce a spiritual reality. Obedience is the key.

Obedience to which command? In the context of our discussion, the obedience is to repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus. The scripture does not show we obey by immersion only. That is my point.

And, it does not matter if you are baptised in the name of Jesus OR in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The spiritual connotation remains the same.