Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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I will ask and appreciate your insight brother.

Good!

Job 1:6-8 reads...

One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

The first thing Satan said, after the Lord had just boasted about the sterling qualities of Job?


“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him
and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so
that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand
and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Odd thing.
Why was Satan so intent to get Job to curse God to his face?

Why?

Because God had in the past had offered Satan a period of time to come to his senses and repent.
To confess his sin and repent of his evil, so that Satan could be reconciled and restored back into
the fellowship he had with God before he rebelled.

Keep in mind. Satan remained spiritual by nature. He had no need to be "born again" like we do.
All Satan had to do after he rebelled would have been to repent by admitting he did wrong and had sinned against God.
Apparently, Satan kept on refusing to do so, and was maintaing his denial of any wrong doing.

Well then?
From what we can know even from our relationship with God our Father?
What will God do with a child of his to bring him to his good senses in relation to God?

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement
that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens/ scourges (skins alive) everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
For what children are not disciplined by their father? Hebrews 12:5-7​

Keep in mind. That applied to angels as well!
After all, angels were referred to as "sons of God."

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however,
it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been
trained by it." Hebrews 12:11​

And, like the Father is with a wayward son?
God made Lucifer to hurt!
Punishing him to try to snap him out of his delusions of grandeur.
Made him to hurt to bring Satan back to his senses to realize that he was not invincible as he fancied himself to be.

Like what happened to the earth when Adam fell in our created world?
Thorns and thistles appeared?

God made the prehistoric creation begin to malfunction and experience a loss of perfect order.
A perfect order that Lucifer had felt like god while presiding over!
For Lucifer with his phenomenal light bearing abilities used to herald in the morning light of that creation.
He gloried in the idea that with each day, his light brought to life on earth animals to awaken and be alive.

(needed at this point) Long story short.

After he rebelled, God began working on Lucifer's physical nature as to humble him out of his feelings of greatness.
Each time Lucifer was made to hurt, Lucifer refused to repent and return to God.

Finally...

It reached at an intensified point while Lucifer was being painfully punished.
That, instead of finally refusing to repent?
Lucifer cursed the Lord to His face!

Then? Having cursed the Lord.
Lucifer then refused to admit that he had done anything wrong in cursing the Lord!
And, later, to announce to all the angels that they too would have cursed the Lord to His face if they had been made to experience what the Lord had put him through. Thus! Proclaiming to all the angels that the Lord is Evil for doing what He did to him.

In order for the Lord to put an end to that lie of Satan?
And to vindicate the Lord's Holiness before all the confused angels?

The solution:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”


Job, knowing full well, that all things come from the Lord?
Job refused to curse the Lord to His face!

The rest was history!
The Lord was vindicated before all the angels that had been confused by God's actions.
(While Satan crept away and hid himself) crawling away in shame and utter humiliation?

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
That teaching is a part of what is called, the resolving of the prehistoric angelic conflict.
It is one reason man was to fall, so God could set up living examples for the angels to learn from about themselves from man’s easily identifiable example.


grace and peace!
 
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Rewriting what the Bible specifically says doesn't work for me... the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth ... no if in that statement... The mind of the flesh is death... no if in that statement... The mind of the flesh is hostile to God ... no if in that statement. I could go on but I don't see the point since you've missed it already, and I'm not impressed when people try to tell me that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

What would happen if God could take the influence of the flesh out of your equation?

Take it out, and leave only God and your soul, no flesh?

Grace with its unlimited power does just that while God presents the Gospel.

Grace like that make souls free to believe, and leaves those who choose to reject the truth to be totally without excuse.
 
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Who here promotes the following?
Name one.

Pelagianism, named after the monk Pelagius, emphasizes human free will and the ability to choose good and achieve salvation without the need for divine grace. It denies the concept of original sin, asserting that humans are born morally neutral and capable of living sinlessly through their own efforts.

Yep. And we are the ones who get bombarded with being the false accusers.
 
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Sin and evil are not seen as the same thing to God.

It says, Jesus died for your sins... not died for your evil

Sin is sin.
Evil justifies what is sin.

Sin is to be recognized by the believer and named to the Lord for forgiveness and purification. (1 John 1:9)
Evil would find ways to deny that a sin was a sin.

‘AGREE. Sinners are like buttholes. As soon as one realizes they’re being a butthole, they stop being a butthole. Self-forgiveness.
Non-believers also reform that way. They’re redeemed without even knowing it.
 
There is no if in many of those statements but you insist on inserting one anyways.

I cannot agree with your doing so. That doesn't mean I can, and there is no if there, either.

John14-17a-Romans8-6-9.png

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Try reading the verses without your bastardizations. Are you unable to???
Umm, i know the word Inability means but your proof text doesn't do well with you. As far as scripture is concern, sounds you are unable to read those verses with "if".
Okay move on.
 
Good!

Job 1:6-8 reads...

One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

The first thing Satan said, after the Lord had just boasted about the sterling qualities of Job?


“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him
and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so
that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand
and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Odd thing.
Why was Satan so intent to get Job to curse God to his face?

Why?

Because God had in the past had offered Satan a period of time to come to his senses and repent.
To confess his sin and repent of his evil, so that Satan could be reconciled and restored back into
the fellowship he had with God before he rebelled.

Keep in mind. Satan remained spiritual by nature. He had no need to be "born again" like we do.
All Satan had to do after he rebelled would have been to repent by admitting he did wrong and had sinned against God.
Apparently, Satan kept on refusing to do so, and was maintaing his denial of any wrong doing.

Well then?
From what we can know even from our relationship with God our Father?
What will God do with a child of his to bring him to his good senses in relation to God?

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement
that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens/ scourges (skins alive) everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
For what children are not disciplined by their father? Hebrews 12:5-7​

Keep in mind. That applied to angels as well!
After all, angels were referred to as "sons of God."

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however,
it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been
trained by it." Hebrews 12:11​

And, like the Father is with a wayward son?
God made Lucifer to hurt!
Punishing him to try to snap him out of his delusions of grandeur.
Made him to hurt to bring Satan back to his senses to realize that he was not invincible as he fancied himself to be.

Like what happened to the earth when Adam fell in our created world?
Thorns and thistles appeared?

God made the prehistoric creation begin to malfunction and experience a loss of perfect order.
A perfect order that Lucifer had felt like god while presiding over!
For Lucifer with his phenomenal light bearing abilities used to herald in the morning light of that creation.
He gloried in the idea that with each day, his light brought to life on earth animals to awaken and be alive.

(needed at this point) Long story short.

After he rebelled, God began working on Lucifer's physical nature as to humble him out of his feelings of greatness.
Each time Lucifer was made to hurt, Lucifer refused to repent and return to God.

Finally...

It reached at an intensified point while Lucifer was being painfully punished.
That, instead of finally refusing to repent?
Lucifer cursed the Lord to His face!

Then? Having cursed the Lord.
Lucifer then refused to admit that he had done anything wrong in cursing the Lord!
And, later, to announce to all the angels that they too would have cursed the Lord to His face if they had been made to experience what the Lord had put him through. Thus! Proclaiming to all the angels that the Lord is Evil for doing what He did to him.

In order for the Lord to put an end to that lie of Satan?
And to vindicate the Lord's Holiness before all the confused angels?

The solution:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”


Job, knowing full well, that all things come from the Lord?
Job refused to curse the Lord to His face!

The rest was history!
The Lord was vindicated before all the angels that had been confused by God's actions.
(While Satan crept away and hid himself) crawling away in shame and utter humiliation?

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
That teaching is a part of what is called, the resolving of the prehistoric angelic conflict.
It is one reason man was to fall, so God could set up living examples for the angels to learn from about themselves from man’s easily identifiable example.


grace and peace!

I am reminded of this verse.

2 Corinthians 1:9
In our hearts we felt we were under sentence of death. However, this was to get us to rely not on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead!
 
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Good!

Job 1:6-8 reads...

One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

The first thing Satan said, after the Lord had just boasted about the sterling qualities of Job?


“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him
and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so
that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand
and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Odd thing.
Why was Satan so intent to get Job to curse God to his face?

Why?

Because God had in the past had offered Satan a period of time to come to his senses and repent.
To confess his sin and repent of his evil, so that Satan could be reconciled and restored back into
the fellowship he had with God before he rebelled.

Keep in mind. Satan remained spiritual by nature. He had no need to be "born again" like we do.
All Satan had to do after he rebelled would have been to repent by admitting he did wrong and had sinned against God.
Apparently, Satan kept on refusing to do so, and was maintaing his denial of any wrong doing.

Well then?
From what we can know even from our relationship with God our Father?
What will God do with a child of his to bring him to his good senses in relation to God?

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement
that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens/ scourges (skins alive) everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
For what children are not disciplined by their father? Hebrews 12:5-7​

Keep in mind. That applied to angels as well!
After all, angels were referred to as "sons of God."

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however,
it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been
trained by it." Hebrews 12:11​

And, like the Father is with a wayward son?
God made Lucifer to hurt!
Punishing him to try to snap him out of his delusions of grandeur.
Made him to hurt to bring Satan back to his senses to realize that he was not invincible as he fancied himself to be.

Like what happened to the earth when Adam fell in our created world?
Thorns and thistles appeared?

God made the prehistoric creation begin to malfunction and experience a loss of perfect order.
A perfect order that Lucifer had felt like god while presiding over!
For Lucifer with his phenomenal light bearing abilities used to herald in the morning light of that creation.
He gloried in the idea that with each day, his light brought to life on earth animals to awaken and be alive.

(needed at this point) Long story short.

After he rebelled, God began working on Lucifer's physical nature as to humble him out of his feelings of greatness.
Each time Lucifer was made to hurt, Lucifer refused to repent and return to God.

Finally...

It reached at an intensified point while Lucifer was being painfully punished.
That, instead of finally refusing to repent?
Lucifer cursed the Lord to His face!

Then? Having cursed the Lord.
Lucifer then refused to admit that he had done anything wrong in cursing the Lord!
And, later, to announce to all the angels that they too would have cursed the Lord to His face if they had been made to experience what the Lord had put him through. Thus! Proclaiming to all the angels that the Lord is Evil for doing what He did to him.

In order for the Lord to put an end to that lie of Satan?
And to vindicate the Lord's Holiness before all the confused angels?

The solution:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”


Job, knowing full well, that all things come from the Lord?
Job refused to curse the Lord to His face!

The rest was history!
The Lord was vindicated before all the angels that had been confused by God's actions.
(While Satan crept away and hid himself) crawling away in shame and utter humiliation?

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
That teaching is a part of what is called, the resolving of the prehistoric angelic conflict.
It is one reason man was to fall, so God could set up living examples for the angels to learn from about themselves from man’s easily identifiable example.


grace and peace!
Thank you @Genez ! The angelic/Kingdom conflict should never be discounted or forgotten when reading ANY verse in the Bible.

Very insightful.
 
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. No sacrifice has been offered for angels.
 
The events which take place in God's creation are a finely woven tapestry which no man can fully understand. God directs the path of all men and events which take place. God is never surprised by what goes on in His creation, and no mere man can unravel the intricacies of His design/plan.

I was reminded of this today when I read a statement posted from a newspaper. And, although I am no fan of today's newspaper, Philip Potempa made an important observation when he wrote:
Even today, the history of stars, the heavens and astrology is still a tightly woven and colorful tapestry. — Philip Potempa, Chicago Tribune, 11 July 2025
 
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Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. No sacrifice has been offered for angels.

Angels don't have physical bodies like us. The sin nature is in the flesh (material part of man) not in the soul (immaterial part of man).

You can't take what applies to man and make it apply to angels, they are a different type of being.
 
Angels don't have physical bodies like us. The sin nature is in the flesh (material part of man) not in the soul (immaterial part of man).

You can't take what applies to man and make it apply to angels, they are a different type of being.
It doesn't change this truth. And Jesus didn't become an angel and die on their behalf. They have no savior.
 
Unregenerate believers are not "carnal"? What are they: Holy, Righteous and Good just like God? Is the "natural" man just like the spiritual man who can understand by God's grace?
please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim.




Rufus said:
Don't you know that Darkness does not comprehend the Light?

John 3:19-20
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed
ESV
note that John 3:19 states "people loved the darkness rather than the light".

note that John 3:19 does not state all people loved the darkness rather than the light.






Rufus said:
And the wicked cannot help but hate the light since they cannot shun evil apart from the sovereign gift of the Fear of the Lord being imparted to their hearts under the New Covenant (Prov 3:7; Jer 32:40)! Yet, shunning evil is the very essence of spiritual understanding (Job 28:28)
you're referring to the wicked ... is that natural man ? ... or are the wicked those who continually suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject the instruction of the Lord ?



Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

... note that the verse (nor the verses prior to vs 7) do not state "the sovereign gift of the Fear of the Lord" must be "imparted to [your] heart" before you fear the LORD.

The verse tells us:

(1) be not wise in thine own eyes means to lay down your own wisdom or the wisdom of man ...
(2) then have reverence for and respectfully worship the LORD ...

in doing both (1) and (2) we will be departing from evil.


Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

amen and amen ... thank God for His everlasting covenant :cool:




post the verses which indicate the gospel cannot be understood ... and I'm talking about the gospel, not other bits of wisdom from God ... and I'm talking about verses which state mankind cannot understand ... not that what is written is rejected.

and if you do not believe there is a difference between "cannot understand" and "rejection of what is written" ... you've got a problem.
I did.
where?




So, since fallen mankind isn't inherently good like God is, then what exactly is man moral's condition?
God said And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22).

Are you disagreeing with the Bible?


see also Rom 2:14-15.



Does Gen 3:22 contradict Jesus' assessment of mankind? Or does Gen 3:22 contradict Isa 1:5-6?
what "assessment of mankind" are you referring to? ... chapter and verse please.

As far as Isa 1:5-6 ... you continuously rip verses from context ... at the very least, read vs 4:

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

who forsook Who? It's not like they did not know the Lord or were ignorant of Him ... they forsook Him. Were those who forsook Him believers or unbelievers?




and please note ... you will not and cannot deal with what was submitted in Post 4835 ... instead you blather on about what was not stated in your ongoing effort to direct the discussion away from the fact that 1 Cor 1:17-23 do not state that natural man cannot understand the gospel ... whereas 1 Cor 2:14 does state that the deeper spiritual truths which go beyond the scope of the gospel cannot be understood by natural man ... nor can the deeper spiritual truths which go beyond the scope of the gospel be understood by immature believers ... your response is a case in point.
.
 
It doesn't change this truth. And Jesus didn't become an angel and die on their behalf. They have no savior.

You forgot to add "for men", It doesn't change the fact for men.

I explained why they don't have a sacrifice but your unwillingness to concede the sin nature (corruption) lies in the flesh (material part) as per Romans 7:23 blinds you to the truth.

Christ took our sin in His body, not His soul because that is where the origin of the corruption lies.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
 
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You forgot to add "for men", It doesn't change the fact for men.

I explained why they don't have a sacrifice but your unwillingness to concede the sin nature (corruption) lies in the flesh (material part) as per Romans 7:23 blinds you to the truth.

Christ took our sin in His body, not His soul because that is where the origin of the corruption lies.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
If the corruption is only in the flesh, why is the mind said to be hostile to God and the heart desperately wicked?
 
If the corruption is only in the flesh, why is the mind said to be hostile to God and the heart desperately wicked?
It's the mind that attempt to come up with justification of the body's sin and the heart is what is desperate to believe its legitimacy.
 
Umm, i know the word Inability means but your proof text doesn't do well with you.
As far as scripture is concern, sounds you are unable to read those verses with "if".
Okay move on.
I read the if where it is, and do not insert it where it isn't, like you do.
 
If the corruption is only in the flesh, why is the mind said to be hostile to God and the heart desperately wicked?
The FWers cannot accept these Scriptural truths. With their incurably wicked heart
they believe they chose to believe what they could neither receive nor comprehend.

promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths. Praise God if Jesus has set you free!