Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Read the Wisdom Books in the OT someday. Fools (the wicked) have no true spiritual understanding, for there is no fear of God before their eyes. Besides, such are BLIND for both are Darkness itself, so they cannot see (understand, comprehend) the truth.

Eh, the claim coming from the free will crowd is that 1 Cor 2:14 does not mean what is says.

And they say also it does not include the gospel, so they again contradict Scripture (1 Cor 1:18).

I am coming to believe they just can't help themselves as they continually contradict and outright deny what the Bible says.

Surely them being Pelagian heretics has something to do with it as well.

 

[cv5]

What the super-determinists call "truths" of Romans 9 truths are definitely nothing of the sort.

Oooops.

What the super-determinists call the "truths" of Romans 9 are definitely nothing of the sort.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Read the Wisdom Books in the OT someday. Fools (the wicked) have no true spiritual understanding, for there is no fear of God before their eyes. Besides, such are BLIND for both are Darkness itself, so they cannot see (understand, comprehend) the truth.

try responding to what i actually submitted:

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.
.

 

[Rufus]

try responding to what i actually submitted:

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.
.

But other parts of the bible do! Your lame interpretation contradicts many other scriptures. But liars, like the evil one, love lies and contradictions. They feed off of them!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Eh, the claim coming from the free will crowd is that 1 Cor 2:14 does not mean what is says.

1 Cor 2:14 does mean what it says ... it says that those who are carnal cannot understand the deeper spiritual things of God which are spoken of in 1 Cor 2:6-16.

You can deny this truth all the livelong day ... which only reveals that you are the one who is not receiving the things of the spirit of God because they are foolishness to you and you cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned.

And they say also it does not include the gospel, so they again contradict Scripture (1 Cor 1:18).

no contradiction between what is written in 1 Cor 1:18 and what is written in 1 Cor 2:14 as discussed in Post 4835.

I am coming to believe they just can't help themselves as they continually contradict and outright deny what the Bible says.

Surely them being Pelagian heretics has something to do with it as well.

more indirect indictment nonsense ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

But other parts of the bible do!

post the verses which indicate the gospel cannot be understood ... and I'm talking about the gospel, not other bits of wisdom from God ... and I'm talking about verses which state mankind cannot understand ... not that what is written is rejected.

and if you do not believe there is a difference between "cannot understand" and "rejection of what is written" ... you've got a problem.

Your lame interpretation contradicts many other scriptures. But liars, like the evil one, love lies and contradictions. They feed off of them!

so rather than deal with the truth that 1 Cor 1:18 actually indicates those who are perishing can understand the gospel ... that they reject the gospel and think it is foolishness, you lump me in with "liars, like the evil one, love lies and contradictions ... and feed off of them!" ... just more of the venomous vitriol of the birds of a feather ...
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[Kroogz]

Eh, the claim coming from the free will crowd is that 1 Cor 2:14 does not mean what is says.

John 3:16~~

Acts 16:31~~

None can believe it. None can understand....Calvies interpretation.

You can choose white socks socks over black socks And have a good day.
But you can't choose eternal life over eternal death and have a good day.

Silly calvies, salvation is for all.

@Magenta You and all your downers, still can't provide a verse that says, " Mankind cannot believe the Gospel to be saved." And you never will.

 

[Kroogz]

post the verses which indicate the gospel cannot be understood ...
.

Exactly! They cannot.

 

[cv5]

Read the Wisdom Books in the OT someday. Fools (the wicked) have no true spiritual understanding, for there is no fear of God before their eyes. Besides, such are BLIND for both are Darkness itself, so they cannot see (understand, comprehend) the truth.

Okay let's add "fools" and "blind" to that list of accusations (heaped upon those you consider as losers in the pre-birth lottery) that is reverberating through your head 24/7.

 

[cv5]

@Magenta You and all your downers, still can't provide a verse that says, " Mankind cannot believe the Gospel to be saved." And you never will.

Super-determinist doomers. Quite a horrible existence if you ask me.

 

[sawdust]

I'm talking about the immaterial part of man. People describe this variously. The corruption took place in Adam as a result of sin. Since we are all Adam, we inherit it from him.

I've only ever heard the words soul or spirit used to describe the immaterial part of man so unless you have some other understanding you are saying God created our souls/spirits corrupt? Or, you are saying humans can create souls/spirits ...... ???

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Yes, they are! God DROVE fallen angels out of heaven, just like He drove Adam out of the Garden. And on Judgment Day, God will DRIVE the angels out from His presence into the Lake of Fire for all eternity, just as he will drive all wicked humanity into the same place. Both of these fallen entities are DEAD to God; for both are separated from His Life. This is what spiritual DEATH means -- eternal separation from the one and only Source of Life. Physical death is separation of body from soul.

P.S. One more thing: Both fallen man and fallen angels are ENEMIES of God! So there's that, as well.

You are correct physical death is separation of soul and body. In the same way, spiritual death is separation of spirit and soul. Angels are spirits, not souls, they cannot be separated from what they are which is why they cannot be given the same type of salvation as men. Yet, even so they have been given every opportunity to repent. They have been allowed to enter heaven even after they have sinned. They can witness first hand the lives of those angels who never rebelled whereas we are born as fallen men into a fallen world. They only have themselves lying about the truth to contend with. We have our sin nature, the world (cosmic thinking) and for some, direct attacks of Satan.

Who knows what else the Lord may have done in His grace and mercy. We are told very little regarding how the Lord deals with His spiritual messengers so we cannot stray too far from what is revealed.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Exactly! They cannot.

right ... the reason 1 Cor 1:18 is improperly folded into 1 Cor 2:14 is because of the words "for they are foolishness unto him" and the word "foolishness" is repeated in 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor 1:23 ... but the words "neither can he know them" in 1 Cor 2:14 are ignored ... those words do not appear in 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor 1:23.

and if we read what is written in 1 Cor 1 concerning the foolishness of preaching the gospel, 1 Cor 1:23 makes clear that only the Greeks considered the preaching of the cross as foolishness.

to the Jews the preaching of the cross was a stumblingblock because they require a sign (1 Cor 1:22) ...

to the Greeks it was foolishness because they seek man's wisdom (the wisdom of words of 1 Cor 1:17; and the wisdom of the wise of 1 Cor 1:19)

Clearly, the Jews understood and rejected – they wanted the Messiah Who has yet to come ... they were not interested in the Messiah Who came as the Lamb of God ... they want the conquering King. ... and some of them are still waiting, while other Jews have embraced the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah .

The Greeks understood and rejected – in Acts 17 they mocked Paul when they heard of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 17:32). Scripture does not say they do not understand ... they understand and mockingly believe the gospel is foolishness.
.

 

[sawdust]

In your pipe dreams. That's not the context of Romans 9. And what you conveniently miss is that the rejection of Ishmael and Esau means they (as individuals) were excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant. They were never in a covenant relationship with God.

It was never missed because it was never claimed they were a part of His covenant.

It's the problem in the Middle East. It's sibling rivalry on steroids. The Lord chose Isaac and not Ishmael, and Jacob and not Esau to create the nation that the Lord would call His own. Ishmael and Esau are very unhappy with God and want to murder their brother just like Cain.

 

[Genez]

I'm talking about the immaterial part of man. People describe this variously. The corruption took place in Adam as a result of sin. Since we are all Adam, we inherit it from him.

We inherited our flesh from Adam. Not our souls!

Before salvation it was the constant dominance over our soul by the flesh that caused our inescapable depravity.
After salvation in Christ the power of grace provides for us a respite from dominance by the flesh, as long as we
continue to name our sins to God whenever we recognize them! 1 John 1:9

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, ​

sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,​

​

that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, ​

but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4​

It never says, do not walk according to the soul.
For the soul walks according to its thinking towards Scripture.
Be it good, or false.

 

[Cameron143]

I've only ever heard the words soul or spirit used to describe the immaterial part of man so unless you have some other understanding you are saying God created our souls/spirits corrupt? Or, you are saying humans can create souls/spirits ...... ???

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It doesn't matter to me whether someone calls the immaterial part of man soul or spirit. And what was true of Adam after the fall is inherited by all his progeny.

John 3 is dealing with salvation. Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus what He means by being born again. God is responsible for both births. Nicodemus confuses the two.

 

[Cameron143]

We inherited our flesh from Adam. Not our souls!

Before salvation it was the constant dominance over our soul by the flesh that caused our inescapable depravity.
After salvation in Christ the power of grace provides for us a respite from dominance by the flesh, as long as we
continue to name our sins to God whenever we recognize them! 1 John 1:9

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, ​

sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,​

​

that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, ​

but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4​

It never says, do not walk according to the soul.
For the soul walks according to its thinking towards Scripture.
Be it good, or false.

Why don't your posts ever actually deal with what I am actually talking about? You have a unique way of saying things people already know and assume you are teaching.

 

[Jackson129]

Yes, they are! God DROVE fallen angels out of heaven, just like He drove Adam out of the Garden. And on Judgment Day, God will DRIVE the angels out from His presence into the Lake of Fire for all eternity, just as he will drive all wicked humanity into the same place. Both of these fallen entities are DEAD to God; for both are separated from His Life. This is what spiritual DEATH means -- eternal separation from the one and only Source of Life. Physical death is separation of body from soul.

P.S. One more thing: Both fallen man and fallen angels are ENEMIES of God! So there's that, as well.

If all the rebellious angles are not found in heaven how did saten walk right in? In the story of Job. In revaluations it states and the dragon fought with Micheal with his angles and neither was thier place found in heaven any more. So fallen angles still have access to heaven. Just as fallen men still exist on earth. Revalatiins 12-7 through 9 directly state that. The devil or Satan which deceived the whole world he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him.

Where do you get this idea they were cast out when man was cast out? I am curious why you even think this. Do you think the war in heaven amd revaluations has already happened? That is the only way you could possibly come to that conclusion.

 

[sawdust]

It doesn't matter to me whether someone calls the immaterial part of man soul or spirit. And what was true of Adam after the fall is inherited by all his progeny.

John 3 is dealing with salvation. Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus what He means by being born again. God is responsible for both births. Nicodemus confuses the two.

God is responsible for the flesh in Jesus' birth, not ours.

Hebrews 10:5
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me;

It matters to me what words you use as it becomes very hard to understand your meaning when you simply throw words out without definition expecting others to understand.

Your answer still fails to address the issue of who is responsible for the corruption which is what I am trying to get at. If God creates the immaterial part then He is responsible if that is where the corruption is and you are saying it is there. Can you explain how that is possible please?

Also based on what you said above you now have God creating both the immaterial and the material parts of man. Does He really create corruption?

 

[Jackson129]

Eh, the claim coming from the free will crowd is that 1 Cor 2:14 does not mean what is says.

And they say also it does not include the gospel, so they again contradict Scripture (1 Cor 1:18).

I am coming to believe they just can't help themselves as they continually contradict and outright deny what the Bible says.

Surely them being Pelagian heretics has something to do with it as well.

Isin that pelagian guy the one Calvin had burned at the stake for thinking differently than him?