Why do some people believe and some do not?

face ual

Your implicit conclusion

RM 9:11-16, "...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

Harmonization: This does not say that God wants to harden anyone, although He could have chosen to do so, but rather...

Sure -



then you went on to tell me all about my supposed hypercalvinism, when previous to this all I had done is quote John 10 ((which answers the OP explicitly)), 1 Timothy 2 and Romans 3 - - as face ual statements without any interpretation.

there is still an awfully big logical error here, considering that Romans 9:17-18 is quoting Exodus, where it's specifically written God hardened Pharoahs heart.

i doubt this verse means, as you say, exactly the opposite of what it says.

i notice you omitted the part about Pharoah. instead of pretending it isn't there, it should be dealt with.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

um, no,

all i did was say Jesus plainly answered the question, i verbatim quoted the scripture.

but it's like i said -- a lot of people don't like the answer.

the answer is extremely clear:

why doesn't everyone believe?
because not everyone is His sheep.

you may interpret that how you like, or how you particularly don't like, but that is the answer.

Romans 8:15 or 16 verses

then you went on to tell me all about my supposed hypercalvinism, when previous to this all I had done is quote John 10 ((which answers the OP explicitly)), 1 Timothy 2 and Romans 3 - - as factual statements without any interpretation.

Jesus told us this answer plainly, but a lot of people do not like the answer.


John 10:24-30Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."

Romans 8:15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

So my question to you and @GWH and anyone else and with the intent not to devolve into a battle over election, but rather to remain with the OP and your John10 explicit answer to it, is 'why do some men become His sheep (believe per the OP) and why do some men not?'

Re Pharoah: I believe God loved and wanted to save Pharoah per NT teaching about God's omnilove, which indicates that God allows rather than causes the hardening of anyone's heart, including Pharoah's.

trouble is that's not what the Bible says..

perhaps some of our human ideas of perfect love are being incorrectly ascribed to God, seeing that the scripture contradicts your expectation.

Since I quoted you, I did fix "factual" and I did bolden one statement to say that I thought your answer to the OP was a good one, so I responded to it earlier.

Hopefully you'll agree that the John10 sheep passage is a favorite of the Calvinistic tradition, which you apparently don't see yourself holding to? So is Rom3:11.

Here was your original explicit answer to the OP:



I think we dealt with the "My sheep" matter from the perspective of John6. The way I understand it, the sheep are His because our Father gave them to Him.

I think @GWH providing this: [Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." shows further that those who are His are His because our Father gave them to Him because they are our Father's. Additionally, as is typical for John, he seems to be blurring the lines between God the Father and God the Son (You gave them to Me because they are Yours - if they belong to the Father then they belong to the Son)

Going back to John6 where we left off, the only thing I see there in regard to this topic is that God is doing the work of drawing unbelievers to His Son - and to Himself - by teaching them. And those that hear and learn from Him come to Jesus when our Father gives them to Him.

Not to blur this further, but it seems to me that our Father draws men to His Son and gives them to His Son, and then Jesus says no one can come to the Father if not through Him. Hopefully we begin to see that there are many things to think about here.

It seems you & @GWH agree that God desires all men to be saved per 1Tim2. I've provided some information re: Rom3:11 and don't think Paul is saying no men ever seek God - which goes against many Scriptures - but is rather making a case that all men are (were in the case of believers) under sin. I can say something else re: 1Tim2 which I think ties to the concept of hearing and learning from the Father if it's of interest

So my question to you and @GWH and anyone else and with the intent not to devolve into a battle over election, but rather to remain with the OP and your John10 explicit answer to it, is 'why do some men become His sheep (believe per the OP) and why do some men not?'

I opened my answer to the OP with an opinion re: men's disobedience and I and others I think have pointed to what seem to be Biblical reasons for their disobedience. To be clear, the specific reasons I'm referring to are mainly volitional.

Any interest?

WHY are some people calloused or hard-hearted or closed-minded to the Gospel of Christ that is meant for their salvation?

God's POS hinges on volition making humanity accountable for their sins beginning with choosing not to seek Him.

To clarify, they have become calloused (as you've elaborated the word) by choosing not to seek Him?

Then, this OP seems to be asking why this is - why they choose not to seek Him. Agree?

Yes, agreed, except that Jesus elaborated "calloused" implicitly by saying that those who seek would find in MT 7:7.

He did say that.

Why don't some people seek Him?

Not if you supersede the NT with the OT, but HB 7:18-10L1 says we should do the reverse in light of the NT verses I cited.
(This is called harmonizing Scripture :^)

Verse 11 is a free adaptation of Ps 14:2. συνίων (from συνίειν, a collateral form of συνιέναι) is used both in the psalm and by Paul with reference to religious and moral understanding. With ὁ ἐκζητῶν τὸν θεόν we have an explicit reference to man’s relation to God. References to ‘seeking’ God are of course to be found very frequently in the OT (compare, for example, Exod 33:7; 2 Chron 15:12, 13, 15; Ezra 8:22; Ps 9:10; 24:6; 27:8 (in Pss examples are specially numerous); Prov 28:5; Isa 9:13; 31:1; 51:1; 55:6; Jer 29:13; Zeph 1:6).