Why do some people believe and some do not?

[Pilgrimshope]

Would you clarify? Did you leave out a word?

“what I’m saying is parts of the gospel we hear often drove us away because it’s not like people tell us and does call us to repentance and obedience”


As we hear the things Jesus was teaching more and more it teaches to things that affect us

some people are greedy and they love money more than God for instance. This is just one example all people aren’t greedy for money but some are and so when they hear things Jesus taught like this look at the effect it has because they love money

““No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.


He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:13-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Their hearts were after money and wealth possession and financial and prosperity matters. So then they hear Jesus and they sneer at him and reject it . They refuse to accept it because it would call them to feel guilt over tbier current ways and to change thier ways.

the call to repentance is hard to accept is my point it isn’t just the subject of greed and live of money we all have issues some it’s lust they hear because that’s thier issue maybe they are generous with money but then they hear this

“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:28‬ ‭NIV‬‬

To some people this is hard to accept because it would mean they’ve commited adultery many times and would need to change how they look at others and the intent and thoughts of tbier heart when they do hear Jesus teachings in the gospel

some are proud , some struggle with lust , some are greedy and love money more than people or the Lord , others tell lies and deceive and he addresses everyone’s issues in the gospel gently and with assurance that he’s there with us and will never throw us away over mistakes if we follow him and press on in faith

Some folks don’t want to hear , what Jesus was really saying in the gospel is the point all of us at some point will hear things we need to change and it’s not easy or pleasant to hear not all sunshine and roses

the gospel is wonderful and a gift but as we grow up it calls for us to lay down our sinful ways and follow after gods ways Jesus taught us before it’s too late

sometimes if we dont hear what we want to hear we dont choose to believe it

 

[GWH]

neither supercede each other. it is one scripture.

harmonization does not consist in re-writing or deleting God's word, and Hebrews 7:18-20 concerns the law given through Moses - which came after Exodus 4, not before.

the annulling of the commandment does not mean the annulling of the OT. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Esau all came before the commandment was given - what was given through Moses was for a specific people for a specific time, and spiritually speaks of Christ.

Exodus 4 is neither changed nor deleted by Hebrews 7.
your ((i presume)) hyper-Arianism still has to deal with it. God hardened Pharoah's heart - His Word explicitly says so. if your theology can't accept that, then you need a new theology, not a new Bible.

Not per HB 7:18-10:1 (cf. MT 3:1-15, MK 1-8) and MK 1:7, in which John the Baptist--representing the OT--says, "After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie."

Superseding does not mean deleting the OT but rather interpreting it in light of the new revelation from God mainly via Jesus and Paul.

 

[posthuman]

Not per HB 7:18-10:1 (cf. MT 3:1-15, MK 1-8) and MK 1:7, in which John the Baptist--representing the OT--says, "After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie."

Superseding does not mean deleting the OT but rather interpreting it in light of the new revelation from God mainly via Jesus and Paul.

but reinterpreting in the light of the revation of Christ means seeing it testify of Him in every place.

it doesn't mean thinking that when God literally says "I will harden Pharoah's heart" it means God will never harden anyone's heart under any circumstances.

that's rewriting scripture to suit your presuppositions, not reading it in light of the testimony of Christ. as previously put, in Mark 4 Jesus plainly says He taught in parables to prevent some from being able to see and hear and understand. this is the same thing.

again, we shouldn't try to change the Bible to make it fit our human conceptions of love. we should allow the Bible to change what we presumed about the reality of love.

 

[Magenta]

but reinterpreting in the light of the revation of Christ means seeing it testify of Him in every place.
it doesn't mean thinking that when God literally says "I will harden Pharoah's heart"
it means God will never harden anyone's heart under any circumstances.

Pharaoh also started out with a hardened heart, and further hardened it a number of times before God hardened it even more.

 

[posthuman]

when my cat was dying, i set aside my presuppositions about a healthy diet, and gave him all his favorite foods.

when it was clear my friend addicted to meth wasn't quitting, i didn't force him into a position of choosing to stop talking to me vs. breaking his habit; i just kept in touch letting him know i cared and loved him.

i don't believe love necessarily means never 'enabling' wrong decisions. sometimes it means overlooking sin. so if you love someone whose hearts desire is to do themselves harm, what do you do? is it love to allow them their passion, or to frustrate them and enforce some kind of behavior against their will that will wind up making them hate you?

if a man loves that which leads to death, is God really "hating them" by letting them pursue it? or is He sorrowfully, patiently letting it play out, waiting for a day when they will turn and seek Him?


in my life i have seen, if all you ever do is yell at someone, they shut their ears to you, and eventually you have no more conversation with them at all, and all hope is lost. but if you forgive, and if you keep no record of wrong, you keep their ear, and hope remains.

love often isn't what we think it is, and we usually don't see that until it's at its extreme points.

 

[posthuman]

Pharaoh also started out with a hardened heart, and further hardened it a number of times before God hardened it even more.

and God told this to Moses before he ever spoke to Pharoah...

this is no simple story. it blows up both sides of the free-will/sovereignty debate!

we humans are so vain to think we have this all sorted

 

[studier]

none of these verses say there is a people who have a lifestyle of seeking Him. they all speak of oaths to seek Him - subsequently broken - and the blessings of seeking Him - subsequently abandoned.

evidently when scripture says no one seeks Him, it is not speaking about having for one moment long ago in distress sought Him and never again, but a continual lifestyle of doing so, which the Greek itself reveals in Romans 3:11, the verb being present active tense.

if this is not a universal statement, as you suggest, even though the la Guage plainly states it as one (("no one" is written, not "few")) then why should anything else in Romans be regarded as universal? Does it not mean, all have sinned, when it is written, all have sinned? Does that really only mean some need salvation, but some don't?

and all the verses you put, not one of them even has the slightest hint of universal application. so all that can be surmised from them is that in certain times, in certain places, a few people promised to seek God, and probably actually did seek God for a short time. none of this reverses the damning reality of Romans 3, where we are universally condemned in our failure to continually seek Him: no one does this. all are condemned: all sin, all reject Him and forget Him, all need mercy.

Well, let's see if you are being accurate. Here is the text of each verse the Commentary I used referenced. In a few cases I have included some immediate context:

Exod 33:7 7 Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the LORD went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp.

2 Chron 15:12, 13, 15 12 Then they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

13 and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

14 Then they took an oath before the LORD with a loud voice, with shouting and trumpets and rams' horns. 15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath, for they had sworn with all their heart and sought Him with all their soul; and He was found by them, and the LORD gave them rest all around.

Ezra 8:22 For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, "The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath are against all those who forsake Him."

Ps 9:10 And those who know Your name will put their trust in You; For You, LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Ps 24:6 This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah

Ps 27:8 When You said, "Seek My face," My heart said to You, "Your face, LORD, I will seek."

in Pss examples are specially numerous (A few examples I - studier - located quickly. Methodology is simply a search of the Hebrew Scriptures using the Hebrew verb used in Ps24:6):

NKJ Psalm 40:16 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let such as love Your salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!"​

​

NKJ Psalm 69:6 Let not those who wait for You, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed because of me; Let not those who seek You be confounded because of me, O God of Israel.​

​

NKJ Psalm 70:4 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; And let those who love Your salvation say continually, "Let God be magnified!"​

​

NKJ Psalm 83:16 Fill their faces with shame, That they may seek Your name, O LORD. (Ps. 83:16 NKJ)​

​

NKJ Psalm 105:3 Glory in His holy name; Let the hearts of those rejoice who seek the LORD!​

Prov 28:5 Evil men do not understand justice, But those who seek the LORD understand all.

Isa 9:13 The Syrians before and the Philistines behind; And they shall devour Israel with an open mouth. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still. 13 For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them, Nor do they seek the LORD of hosts.

Isa 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, And rely on horses, Who trust in chariots because they are many, And in horsemen because they are very strong, But who do not look to the Holy One of Israel, Nor seek the LORD!

Isa 51:1 NKJ Isaiah 51:1 "Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness, You who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were hewn, And to the hole of the pit from which you were dug.

Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Jer 29:13 I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

Zeph 1:6 4 "I will stretch out My hand against Judah, And against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off every trace of Baal from this place, The names of the idolatrous priests with the pagan priests--5 Those who worship the host of heaven on the housetops; Those who worship and swear oaths by the LORD, But who also swear by Milcom1; 6 Those who have turned back from following the LORD, And have not sought the LORD, nor inquired of Him."



So, I conclude that your statement in your first paragraph is not correct. The concept of seeking God seems well-known in the OC Scriptures. I think Paul knew this and them well. You've added the concept of "continual lifestyle" which seems worthy of discussion.

The immediate context of Paul's argument for Rom3:11 is Rom3:9:

NKJ Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written (Rom. 3:10 NKJ)

• The immediate case being made is "We Jews are no better than Gentiles:
  • The Explanation for Jews being no better than Gentiles was made in a previous charge: "both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin
    • The Hebrew Scriptures are the warrant for the charge that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.

This is the case Paul is making using the Hebrew Scriptures. No more. No less.

I'll answer another point in a separate post.

 

[posthuman]

So, I conclude that your statement in your first paragraph is not correct. The concept of seeking God seems well-known in the OC Scriptures. I think Paul knew this and them well.

i didn't say the concept was alien.

but the scriptures you put indicate a certain population sought Him in short terms and made oaths to seek Him. the Psalm and it's quotation in Romans aren't nullified by this; the Greek indicates continual action, not one-time-in-past or having-made-a-promise-to-do-something-at-an-unspecified-future-time.

Paul certainly knew this, and it wasn't an accident he quoted it, saying no one seeks God. he wrote by the Spirit of the very same God.
and Paul is certainly speaking universally - the whole argument of Romans 1-5 is not about some certain subset of people needing salvation and some others being approved by their own meritous works: all are condemned, no one is justified outside of the mercy of God, and the promise has always been through faith.

a few people promising to seek God, and a few people actually seeking him for a specific time period, do not contradict Roman's 3:11. it's not saying no one has ever sought Him or that no one has ever promised to; it's saying everyone is guilty of not seeking Him.

 

[posthuman]

The immediate case being made is "We Jews are no better than Gentiles:

• The Explanation for Jews being no better than Gentiles was made in a previous charge: "both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin
  • The Hebrew Scriptures are the warrant for the charge that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.

if the Jews had kept the oath they made, to seek Him continually, then they would not be equally condemned with those who had not made that oath.

it stands, "no one seeks Him"

so He also said, "I will be found by a people who did not look for Me" - and the gospel is first to the Jew, then the Gentile.

the condemnation isn't that no one has ever done anything good. it's that all have sinned.
therefore finding a single instance of a good deed doesn't disprove it, but any instance of anything failing to measure up to His own holiness, proves it.

 

[Magenta]

and God told this to Moses before he ever spoke to Pharoah...

this is no simple story. it blows up both sides of the free-will/sovereignty debate!

we humans are so vain to think we have this all sorted

Well, free will of the natural man in relation to salvation is nowhere taught in the Bible. So there is that. Say that, though, and people have knee jerk reactions and jump to all kinds of erroneous conclusions and then start laying on the false accusations rather thick. They start with condemnation prior to investigation, which is not a good move no matter the topic. Too many equate making choices with having a will that is free. Imagine that. They do love to ignore what Scripture actually says, though. The natural man is a slave to sin, and a lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil. Scripture describes such a person as not just a lover of darkness, but darkness itself. Light (Jesus Christ) came into the wold... In Him was life, and that life was the light of men... and darkness does not comprehend the Light. But free willers say the opposite. Instead of the gospel message being incomprehensible and foolishness to the natural man, in their theology the NM embraces it with their hostile-to-God mind and stony heart that is in need of being circumcised/replaced with a heart enabled to love God. Scripture explicitly states that being born again is NOT according to the will of the flesh or the will of man, as free willers insist, but according to the will of GOD... HIS will works in us according to His desire and not according to the desire or effort of man.

 

[Cranberry]

What do you believe the reason is for this?

-Some people are more spiritually inclined?

-Some people are chosen before the foundation of the world?

-Some people just love their sin and refuse to turn from it?

My opinion is:
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

God's grace gives light to everyman but some refuse to humble themselves:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Read all of Matthew 13 for a probable answer.
Particularly this part in verses 11 to 15.
"And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ "
As was prophesied,foretold to happen, in Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:9-10 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

 

[posthuman]

The immediate context of Paul's argument for Rom3:11 is Rom3:9:

NKJ Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written (Rom. 3:10 NKJ)

... making Romans 3:11 specifically about the Jew, who promised to seek Him, but didn't.

 

[studier]

if this is not a universal statement, as you suggest, even though the la Guage plainly states it as one (("no one" is written, not "few")) then why should anything else in Romans be regarded as universal? Does it not mean, all have sinned, when it is written, all have sinned? Does that really only mean some need salvation, but some don't?

The Bible does use seemingly global words in a non-global way. An example from Genesis that should make us aware of this so we can be looking for it:

NKJ Gen6:13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

A few verses later similar language is repeated, but Noah and others and other creatures are not included. Maybe God has His eye on the ones through whom the earth is filled with violence, and this is what He means by "all flesh". Maybe...???

The point is simply that the Text does not speak in ways that are always friendly to our eyes and ears and the way we think.

In answer to the remainder, Paul's point is that sin is universal, and because of this, Jews are not better than Gentiles even thought they had an advantage.

Once again, I mention what you brought up re: continual seeking. Maybe like perfect righteousness, perfect/continual seeking is God's desire and the focus of all of this. Men were said to be righteous, but we know it's not the ultimate righteousness He requires. Maybe we should see the same thing re: seeking since men obviously have been seeking Him for millennia. I saw one verse along the way that seemed at quick glance to parallel seeking Him with calling upon Him.

But the point is that the non-seeking in Rom3:11 should not be used beyond the case Paul is referencing it for. Sin is universal and that means his Jewish audience needed to rethink who they were in the scheme of things and focus on the matter of faith in their resurrected King.

 

[studier]

a few people promising to seek God, and a few people actually seeking him for a specific time period, do not contradict Roman's 3:11. it's not saying no one has ever sought Him or that no one has ever promised to; it's saying everyone is guilty of not seeking Him.

I'm getting used to you and how you say things about Calvinistic strongholds but your conclusions like this one are not Calvinistic.

Maybe we could refine your last clause like this: it's saying everyone is guilty of not seeking Him as (in the way) He desires them to do.

Thoughts?

Then the question arises so I more fully understand you, 'are the unsaved able to seek Him?' Maybe this can or should even be tightened up.

the Greek indicates continual action, not one-time-in-past or having-made-a-promise-to-do-something-at-an-unspecified-future-time.

Then how would you retranslate this?

Romans 3:11 οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ συνιῶν, οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἐκζητῶν τὸν θεόν·

 

[studier]

if the Jews had kept the oath they made, to seek Him continually, then they would not be equally condemned with those who had not made that oath.

it stands, "no one seeks Him"

It doesn't stand apart from some clarification that we seem to be discussing.

the condemnation isn't that no one has ever done anything good. it's that all have sinned.
therefore finding a single instance of a good deed doesn't disprove it, but any instance of anything failing to measure up to His own holiness, proves it.

Agreed. So, back to the clarification of what Paul means in Rom3:11.

 

[studier]

... making Romans 3:11 specifically about the Jew, who promised to seek Him, but didn't.

You sure? Then not seeking is strictly a Jewish issue and not a universal problem?

 

[GWH]

but reinterpreting in the light of the revation of Christ means seeing it testify of Him in every place.

it doesn't mean thinking that when God literally says "I will harden Pharoah's heart" it means God will never harden anyone's heart under any circumstances.

that's rewriting scripture to suit your presuppositions, not reading it in light of the testimony of Christ. as previously put, in Mark 4 Jesus plainly says He taught in parables to prevent some from being able to see and hear and understand. this is the same thing.

again, we shouldn't try to change the Bible to make it fit our human conceptions of love. we should allow the Bible to change what we presumed about the reality of love.

Yes, "reinterpreting in the light of the revelation of Christ means seeing it testify of Him in every place."

Re "it doesn't mean thinking that when God literally says "I will harden Pharoah's heart" it means God will never harden anyone's heart under any circumstances.": Who are you to limit how to apply the love of Christ to Pharoah?

Re "that's rewriting scripture to suit your presuppositions, not reading it in light of the testimony of Christ": No, it is allowing the NT to apply GW to old presuppositions--if you don't mind!

Re "as previously put, in Mark 4 Jesus plainly says He taught in parables to prevent some from being able to see and hear and understand." So you think Jesus was a big meany and tricky?

Re "we shouldn't try to change the Bible to make it fit our human conceptions of love. we should allow the Bible to change what we presumed about the reality of love.": Exactly! Now go and sin no more (by viewing Jesus as tricky, for starters).

 

[JMH]

You don't seem to listen to what I say. I have not disagreed that we were dead, without hope and under condemnation.

You are not a programmed robot nor a puppet. Grace can make dead men hear but that does not mean grace makes dead men believe. We respond to the truth God presents from our own will because He ensures we can. It is not our believing that saves us. It is the will of God to save those who are believing. It is the power of His word that saves us and generates faith. Our believing is not saving faith, it is a positive volition response to the truth of God. Faith comes from the word but it does not operate in a vacuum.

C'mon brother....It is our own will that is corrupt and will never choose God.. we established this back in Eden brother, and yes Grace is Grace!! so.. by God's grace a lone He brought you back to life again.. "Let your will be done, not mine"

 

[Magenta]

C'mon brother....It is our own will that is corrupt and will never choose God.. we established this back in Eden brother, and yes Grace is Grace!! so.. by God's grace a lone He brought you back to life again.. "Let your will be done, not mine"

So strange that in the theology of some, the natural man with an uncircumcised heart is made
equal to Jesus, and ascribed the ability to make choices only the spiritual man possesses.

 

[posthuman]

Re "it doesn't mean thinking that when God literally says "I will harden Pharoah's heart" it means God will never harden anyone's heart under any circumstances.": Who are you to limit how to apply the love of Christ to Pharoah?

when scripture explicitly and clearly says one thing, and you contend it means exactly the opposite of what it says, that is not "applying the love of Christ" to it.
that is rejecting scripture in favor of your imagination, exchanging the truth for a lie.