Why do some people believe and some do not?
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there is still an awfully big logical error here, considering that Romans 9:17-18 is quoting Exodus, where it's specifically written God hardened Pharoahs heart.
i doubt this verse means, as you say, exactly the opposite of what it says.
i notice you omitted the part about Pharoah. instead of pretending it isn't there, it should be dealt with.
I see no quote of me saying that you had been giving only your own interpretations, but I am glad you did not intend to come across as a Calvinist, and I agree with what JN 10, 1TM 2 and RM 3 mean, so are we good now? :^)
Re Pharoah: I believe God loved and wanted to save Pharoah per NT teaching about God's omnilove, which indicates that God allows rather than causes the hardening of anyone's heart, including Pharoah's.
John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.
True, yet not everyone will necessarily believe God and not everyone will hear God's voice.
There are Pretenders, and there are others honest about not believing. Ultimately I see it is between God and that person each and every person
Romans 8:15 or 16 verses
No matter whatever I say or not say, Dom or not do, I know and God knows between us, that is what matters the most,
therefore whoever is a pretender might want to reconsider between God and you not me and you, taking to all, no one specific
Love is real from God as in 1 Cor 13:4-7 to me at least. I see God's grace is sufficient for me and chose not to take this gift for granted rather in appreciation, thanksgiving and praise
There is evil and is chosen to be and fake as if not evil and has done evil to those that they get under them to believe them and were only faking it for their earthly gain here and now, which I have bene victim of in religion and not only there, in this world as well of others being friendly. Now being made aware to see and remain humble in it trusting God to take care of me as I pound the pavement in trust to get through it all
God simply loves us all otherwise that cross would not have ever happened, nor the resurrection, the two needed to be real as the air I breathe and do not normally see
Just venting thanks
because they have made their choice
Working out my own salvation, in trust to God to teach me truth over the errors of this world we are in for now, thanks
God knows who is who and what is what, I see to rest in that, thank you
Romans 8:15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Since I quoted you, I did fix "factual" and I did bolden one statement to say that I thought your answer to the OP was a good one, so I responded to it earlier.
Hopefully you'll agree that the John10 sheep passage is a favorite of the Calvinistic tradition, which you apparently don't see yourself holding to? So is Rom3:11.
Here was your original explicit answer to the OP:
I think we dealt with the "My sheep" matter from the perspective of John6. The way I understand it, the sheep are His because our Father gave them to Him.
I think @GWH providing this: [Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." shows further that those who are His are His because our Father gave them to Him because they are our Father's. Additionally, as is typical for John, he seems to be blurring the lines between God the Father and God the Son (You gave them to Me because they are Yours - if they belong to the Father then they belong to the Son)
Going back to John6 where we left off, the only thing I see there in regard to this topic is that God is doing the work of drawing unbelievers to His Son - and to Himself - by teaching them. And those that hear and learn from Him come to Jesus when our Father gives them to Him.
Not to blur this further, but it seems to me that our Father draws men to His Son and gives them to His Son, and then Jesus says no one can come to the Father if not through Him. Hopefully we begin to see that there are many things to think about here.
It seems you & @GWH agree that God desires all men to be saved per 1Tim2. I've provided some information re: Rom3:11 and don't think Paul is saying no men ever seek God - which goes against many Scriptures - but is rather making a case that all men are (were in the case of believers) under sin. I can say something else re: 1Tim2 which I think ties to the concept of hearing and learning from the Father if it's of interest
So my question to you and @GWH and anyone else and with the intent not to devolve into a battle over election, but rather to remain with the OP and your John10 explicit answer to it, is 'why do some men become His sheep (believe per the OP) and why do some men not?'
I opened my answer to the OP with an opinion re: men's disobedience and I and others I think have pointed to what seem to be Biblical reasons for their disobedience. To be clear, the specific reasons I'm referring to are mainly volitional.
Any interest?
Thank you, especially the Lord, woe is me still, I plainly need Father in Father's Holy Spirit to lead not just live in me, learning. this truth daily and seeing trusting no matter what gets one through it in rest as called to be in Hebrews 4:9-13
Romans 8:15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
By free choice given, the only thing left after the cross of Son that took away all sin in his Father's sight for us first at that one time willing death for us to get given new life in God Father's Spirit and Truth for us in the risen Jesus, and we be new, in God's Spirit and Truth (Holy Spirit)
Amazing truth that is getting gotten set in me. Not to fight or defend, it is given me to stand in and not fight, y'all too, even as Jesus did not fight all that way to that cross first for us all, that was not seen until the resurrection three days later, the new life as in John 10:10 the last part, new life more abundantly to be content in, no matter whether in sickness or health, rich or poor matters not anymore
Thanks for the Question
Once you know in belief as God Father reveals it to us, one will see the first part of John 10:10
" The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy" Who is the thief?
Is it possibly emotion(s) leading people, in place of following you?
You decide, to me it is as like a trainThe Engine leads and Emotions follow
Looking at a train, The Engine is truth that pulls the caboose along with the truth (the engine)
So the caboose being Emotion. do you want your emotional thought(s) leading you?
I assuredly do not. Seeing to repent (Change my mind to see from God Father's view through Son's done work for me to be alive forever in thanksgiving and praise with all sin by God taken away, woe woe is me you think?
He Jesus the Son is risen where new life is given from Father, to em at least, as I can only truthfully speak for me what is given me, thanks
trouble is that's not what the Bible says..
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said to Moses,
"When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."
perhaps some of our human ideas of perfect love are being incorrectly ascribed to God, seeing that the scripture contradicts your expectation. Not if you supersede the NT with the OT, but HB 7:18-10L1 says we should do the reverse in light of the NT verses I cited.
(This is called harmonizing Scripture :^)
Jesus (in MT 13:14-15) and Paul (in ACTS 28:26-27) cited IS 6:9-10 as the answer to this question re atheism: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding... for this people's heart has become calloused." But WHY are some people calloused or hard-hearted or closed-minded to the Gospel of Christ that is meant for their salvation?
God's POS hinges on volition making humanity accountable for their sins beginning with choosing not to seek Him.
Yes, behavioral psychology seeks to explain why things happen, although it has not answered this question. For example if a child is raised in an abusive environment, then he may or may not reject the abusive Christian family and God when he grows up.
Yes, other questions include "why does God allow suffering and disease?" But while we must pray and hope suffering will end, the Bible does provide partial answers to these questions.
Yes, agreed, except that Jesus elaborated "calloused" implicitly by saying that those who seek would find in MT 7:7.
That is a mystery, but behavioral psychology may be correct to note that people have different excuses, although no good reason. I know that because I was raised in accordance with God's plan A regarding parenting, I would have no excuse had I decided not to seek God, so I wonder whether there are degrees in hell for those whose environmental influences were horrible such that Hitler will suffer much worse and longer than a teenager in Mongolia who did not seek God but did no violent crime. Do you think so?
neither supercede each other. it is one scripture.
harmonization does not consist in re-writing or deleting God's word, and Hebrews 7:18-20 concerns the law given through Moses - which came after Exodus 4, not before.
the annulling of the commandment does not mean the annulling of the OT. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Esau all came before the commandment was given - what was given through Moses was for a specific people for a specific time, and spiritually speaks of Christ.
Exodus 4 is neither changed nor deleted by Hebrews 7.
your ((i presume)) hyper-Arianism still has to deal with it. God hardened Pharoah's heart - His Word explicitly says so. if your theology can't accept that, then you need a new theology, not a new Bible.
none of these verses say there is a people who have a lifestyle of seeking Him. they all speak of oaths to seek Him - subsequently broken - and the blessings of seeking Him - subsequently abandoned.
evidently when scripture says no one seeks Him, it is not speaking about having for one moment long ago in distress sought Him and never again, but a continual lifestyle of doing so, which the Greek itself reveals in Romans 3:11, the verb being present active tense.
if this is not a universal statement, as you suggest, even though the la Guage plainly states it as one (("no one" is written, not "few")) then why should anything else in Romans be regarded as universal? Does it not mean, all have sinned, when it is written, all have sinned? Does that really only mean some need salvation, but some don't?
and all the verses you put, not one of them even has the slightest hint of universal application. so all that can be surmised from them is that in certain times, in certain places, a few people promised to seek God, and probably actually did seek God for a short time. none of this reverses the damning reality of Romans 3, where we are universally condemned in our failure to continually seek Him: no one does this. all are condemned: all sin, all reject Him and forget Him, all need mercy.