Why do some people believe and some do not?
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If you are not BORN into His family then it is like reading someone else's mail.
And by the way, there is no one that seeks unless you are Born again..
There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one. (Romans 3:10-12)
I hope this was helpful..
And by the way, there is no one that seeks unless you are Born again..
There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one. (Romans 3:10-12)
I hope this was helpful..
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John 7:7- "the world can not hate you but me, it hateth, because i testify of it, that the works thereof are evil". people don't want to be told what, where, when & how, what to do. people are generally weak in this area & it's getting worse. the devil knows people will fall for a quick thrill because they have it now, not later. when your on God's side, you usually have to wait for answered prayer. then you have the followers, the world is full of them. they follow to be friends, because it looks right, everybody else is doing it, it's easy to do, etc. others weren't taught correctly to begin with & never learned on their own. then there's always this: the older you are, the harder it is to want to learn anything new. SIN'S PLEASURES ARE ALWAYS NOW, so it fits this sinful world. i was always spiritually inclined, even when i was catholic!
Luke 19:41-42
Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying,
"If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes."
Ezekiel 33:11
'As I live,'
says the Lord GOD,
'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked'
Huh? I was quoting YOU, not Scripture! You certainly don't make Bible discussion easy.
I had said "Your list doesn’t answer why only some sinners repent etcetera when God loves and enables everyone to seek Him per Paul in 1TM 2:3-4." This verse says, "...God our Savior wants all people to be saved...". Wouldn't God want them to be saved because He loves them? (cf. MT 5:44&48)--and if He loves them, wouldn't He enable them to seek Him? (cf. MT 7:7)
Your objection implies you think the verse means "God wants only a few people to be saved", presumably because He hates the others and prevents them from being saved, (which is blasphemous IMO, but God will judge). Do I misunderstand you, I hope?
I had said "Your list doesn’t answer why only some sinners repent etcetera when God loves and enables everyone to seek Him per Paul in 1TM 2:3-4." This verse says, "...God our Savior wants all people to be saved...". Wouldn't God want them to be saved because He loves them? (cf. MT 5:44&48)--and if He loves them, wouldn't He enable them to seek Him? (cf. MT 7:7)
Your objection implies you think the verse means "God wants only a few people to be saved", presumably because He hates the others and prevents them from being saved, (which is blasphemous IMO, but God will judge). Do I misunderstand you, I hope?
No, because you omitted what the "..." continued, so the full quote should have been, "You see we all wanted darkness and we're all going to hell because of it BUT by Gods grace alone He choses whom He wills to save, (gives a new heart and Spirit) and the rest receive justice (kept in original state of rejecting God) "... [GWH continued with what JMH implied but could not bring himself to say] because God hates those He does not choose--a blasphemous view (contradicting MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, etc.) born of the angel of darkness!"
Does the complete communication change your reply? God hates the sin but not the sinner is what MY argument implies: God atones for the sins and provides the Way for the sinner to be saved. Not enabling the sinner to accept that Way is NOT loving that soul.
Does the complete communication change your reply? God hates the sin but not the sinner is what MY argument implies: God atones for the sins and provides the Way for the sinner to be saved. Not enabling the sinner to accept that Way is NOT loving that soul.
- you said i hadn't been quoting scripture, that i had been giving only my own interpretations.
- i said 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says "He desires all men to be saved"
- that's a quote, not an interpretation.
- i said Romans 3:11 says "no one seeks Him"
- that's a quote, not an interpretation.
that's interpretation.
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this is all just your interpretation of scripture i quoted.
yup.
i think maybe you have been carefully groomed to despise what you call in blanket terms 'calvanism' and trained to see it under every rock...?
hanging out in this forum, i've come to see that is not uncommon for people growing up in certain churches in the last 50 years. i had never even heard of calvin until i started reading threads here of people blaming him for everything from the lasciviousness of las vegas to the price of groceries. isn't he just the little blonde kid with the tiger and the big imagination?
so, i think you've jumped the gun a little. which is cool - i think i act the same way whenever there's a thread about Genesis 3 or whether animals have souls lol. they're just topics i've studied a lot and am eager to talk about.
yup.
i think maybe you have been carefully groomed to despise what you call in blanket terms 'calvanism' and trained to see it under every rock...?
hanging out in this forum, i've come to see that is not uncommon for people growing up in certain churches in the last 50 years. i had never even heard of calvin until i started reading threads here of people blaming him for everything from the lasciviousness of las vegas to the price of groceries. isn't he just the little blonde kid with the tiger and the big imagination?
so, i think you've jumped the gun a little. which is cool - i think i act the same way whenever there's a thread about Genesis 3 or whether animals have souls lol. they're just topics i've studied a lot and am eager to talk about.
- i would not quote scripture that says God desires all to be saved if i believed He does not desire all to be saved.
- i would not quote scripture that says God wept over Jerusalem and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked if i believed He hates the lost and wants to prevent them from being saved.
- i think when talking about human free will and God's sovereignty in election, passages like Romans 3 & 8-9, John 8-10, the callings of Jonah and Paul, Ezekiel 16 etc. can't be ignored or twisted into saying the opposite of what they plainly say. the topic is as clear as fog, and we should have a lot more wonder and less cultural dogmatism when we consider it.
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what should we make of this?
Mark 4:11-12
And He said to them,
"To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.'"
should we.. - try to figure out how to make it not say what it explicitly says?
- try to understand how that this is love?
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I've read a few comments here re: Rom3:11 where Paul says no one understands and no one seeks after God.
Paul is simply making the case that both Jews and Greeks are under sin Rom3:9.
Paul draws from Ps14 as reference to make his case that all are under and dealing with sin. But there is plenty of OT reference re: men seeking God. Rather than me doing the work I'll paste an excerpt from the International Critical Commentary referenced after the excerpt. I've highlighted the information re: seeking God. I've looked at a few referenced verses but not all of them.
PS14 speaks of a time when God looked down at men. It's enough for Paul to make his case that Jews and Gentiles are all dealing with sin. But it's not an absolute statement of all men at all times not seeking God.
Paul is simply making the case that both Jews and Greeks are under sin Rom3:9.
Paul draws from Ps14 as reference to make his case that all are under and dealing with sin. But there is plenty of OT reference re: men seeking God. Rather than me doing the work I'll paste an excerpt from the International Critical Commentary referenced after the excerpt. I've highlighted the information re: seeking God. I've looked at a few referenced verses but not all of them.
Verse 11 is a free adaptation of Ps 14:2. συνίων (from συνίειν, a collateral form of συνιέναι) is used both in the psalm and by Paul with reference to religious and moral understanding. With ὁ ἐκζητῶν τὸν θεόν we have an explicit reference to man’s relation to God. References to ‘seeking’ God are of course to be found very frequently in the OT (compare, for example, Exod 33:7; 2 Chron 15:12, 13, 15; Ezra 8:22; Ps 9:10; 24:6; 27:8 (in Pss examples are specially numerous); Prov 28:5; Isa 9:13; 31:1; 51:1; 55:6; Jer 29:13; Zeph 1:6).
C. E. B. Cranfield, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, International Critical Commentary (London; New York: T&T Clark International, 2004), 192.
PS14 speaks of a time when God looked down at men. It's enough for Paul to make his case that Jews and Gentiles are all dealing with sin. But it's not an absolute statement of all men at all times not seeking God.
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You don't seem to listen to what I say. I have not disagreed that we were dead, without hope and under condemnation.
You are not a programmed robot nor a puppet. Grace can make dead men hear but that does not mean grace makes dead men believe. We respond to the truth God presents from our own will because He ensures we can. It is not our believing that saves us. It is the will of God to save those who are believing. It is the power of His word that saves us and generates faith. Our believing is not saving faith, it is a positive volition response to the truth of God. Faith comes from the word but it does not operate in a vacuum.
You are not a programmed robot nor a puppet. Grace can make dead men hear but that does not mean grace makes dead men believe. We respond to the truth God presents from our own will because He ensures we can. It is not our believing that saves us. It is the will of God to save those who are believing. It is the power of His word that saves us and generates faith. Our believing is not saving faith, it is a positive volition response to the truth of God. Faith comes from the word but it does not operate in a vacuum.
Quote me saying that you had been giving only your own interpretations.
I agree with your quotes of Scripture, but my understanding is that your interpretation disagrees with my harmonization, which was buried so here it is again:
Your implicit conclusion (derived from ignoring Scripture teaching God's omnilove) is that God hates those He does not choose to save--which is a blasphemous accusation that results from believing the evil angel of false light. However, we can harmonizes pertinent scripture as follows:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Harmonization: Whoever believes in Jesus becomes one of them for whom Jesus prayed. Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.
DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
Harmonization: Those who choose death/curses remain part of the world for whom Jesus did not pray.
MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Harmonization: Jesus longed or prayed for the unbelieving world to repent and become willing to choose life/blessings.
1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Harmonization: God wants everyone in the world to be saved although some choose not to be gathered under His wings. IOW, God initiates; souls cooperate–or not. (Cf. RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10)
RM 11:7, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”,
Harmonization: This seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom”.
An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart. Thus, we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28), because the Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16). God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2THS 1:6).
EPH 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Harmonization: What the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).
Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Harmonization: Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Luke 8:10, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
Harmonization: Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).
Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
Harmonization: This means that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (MT 19:23-24).
JN 12:32, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to myself."
This drawing is akin to calling, but it does not mean that all will cooperate and be chosen or saved.
JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Harmonization: This refers to MT 1:16, which records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.
ACTS 16:14b, "The Lord opened her [Lydia’s] heart to respond to Paul’s message."
Harmonization: Everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God softens everyone's heart so they may believe--but this grace is not irresistible.
RM 3:10-18, "There is no one righteous, not even one...".
Harmonization: This does NOT say that man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, but rather...
RM 3:23-26, "All have sinned... and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... to demonstrate His righteousness... so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
RM 9:11-16, "...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."
Harmonization: This does not say that God wants to harden anyone, although He could have chosen to do so, but rather...
RM 9:23, " What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy... not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles... who did not pursue righteousness but have obtained it--a righteousness that is by faith."
2TM 2:25-26, "Opponents must be gently instructed in the hope that God will grant them repentance... and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Harmonization: LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free, and so God must give sinners sufficient sense for repenting/escaping, because...
2PT 3:9, "The Lord is not... wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." although He allows people to believe a lie...
2THS 2:10, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved."
P.S. regarding synonyms for "elect":
elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)
I agree with your quotes of Scripture, but my understanding is that your interpretation disagrees with my harmonization, which was buried so here it is again:
Your implicit conclusion (derived from ignoring Scripture teaching God's omnilove) is that God hates those He does not choose to save--which is a blasphemous accusation that results from believing the evil angel of false light. However, we can harmonizes pertinent scripture as follows:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Harmonization: Whoever believes in Jesus becomes one of them for whom Jesus prayed. Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.
DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
Harmonization: Those who choose death/curses remain part of the world for whom Jesus did not pray.
MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Harmonization: Jesus longed or prayed for the unbelieving world to repent and become willing to choose life/blessings.
1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Harmonization: God wants everyone in the world to be saved although some choose not to be gathered under His wings. IOW, God initiates; souls cooperate–or not. (Cf. RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10)
RM 11:7, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”,
Harmonization: This seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom”.
An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart. Thus, we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28), because the Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16). God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2THS 1:6).
EPH 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Harmonization: What the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).
Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Harmonization: Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Luke 8:10, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
Harmonization: Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).
Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
Harmonization: This means that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (MT 19:23-24).
JN 12:32, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to myself."
This drawing is akin to calling, but it does not mean that all will cooperate and be chosen or saved.
JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Harmonization: This refers to MT 1:16, which records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.
ACTS 16:14b, "The Lord opened her [Lydia’s] heart to respond to Paul’s message."
Harmonization: Everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God softens everyone's heart so they may believe--but this grace is not irresistible.
RM 3:10-18, "There is no one righteous, not even one...".
Harmonization: This does NOT say that man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, but rather...
RM 3:23-26, "All have sinned... and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... to demonstrate His righteousness... so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
RM 9:11-16, "...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."
Harmonization: This does not say that God wants to harden anyone, although He could have chosen to do so, but rather...
RM 9:23, " What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy... not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles... who did not pursue righteousness but have obtained it--a righteousness that is by faith."
2TM 2:25-26, "Opponents must be gently instructed in the hope that God will grant them repentance... and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Harmonization: LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free, and so God must give sinners sufficient sense for repenting/escaping, because...
2PT 3:9, "The Lord is not... wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." although He allows people to believe a lie...
2THS 2:10, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved."
P.S. regarding synonyms for "elect":
elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)