Why do some people believe and some do not?
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i simply don't believe 'applying the fact of His love' to scripture means rejecting scripture.
His word says multiple times that He hardened the heart of Pharoah and of his army. this isn't a translation issue; it's not a debateable point. it's fact.
for you to say He didn't? when He clearly says He did? then tell me i am the one who is imagining things? that's ludicrous.
instead of rejecting what the scripture says, we should try to understand why it says what it does.
His word says multiple times that He hardened the heart of Pharoah and of his army. this isn't a translation issue; it's not a debateable point. it's fact.
for you to say He didn't? when He clearly says He did? then tell me i am the one who is imagining things? that's ludicrous.
instead of rejecting what the scripture says, we should try to understand why it says what it does.
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There is a translation issue in this verse. Here's an alternative:
ESV John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
It's either speaking of the Incarnation or of men coming into the world.
To me, the interesting part for the topic of this thread, is that this True Light enlightens/gives light to every man.
As I read the posts here, it seems there are at least 2 choices for unbelief: All are enlightened, then some choose darkness, and some are hardened by God into darkness.
What about belief - how does that work - do some men retain the light they were given and then seek more or respond positively when more is made available - or...???
ESV John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
It's either speaking of the Incarnation or of men coming into the world.
To me, the interesting part for the topic of this thread, is that this True Light enlightens/gives light to every man.
As I read the posts here, it seems there are at least 2 choices for unbelief: All are enlightened, then some choose darkness, and some are hardened by God into darkness.
What about belief - how does that work - do some men retain the light they were given and then seek more or respond positively when more is made available - or...???
@GWH @posthuman @Mem re: YHWH hardening Pharoah's heart:
NKJ Exod. 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
NKJ Exod. 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
NKJ Exod. 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
NKJ Exod. 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
NKJ Exod. 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.
NKJ Exod. 10:1 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,
NKJ Exod. 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
So, how does this hardening work?
Then, when Paul writes his commentary about this, what does he mean by this statement:
NKJ Rom 9:18-22 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared (this is a passive verb, so someone or something had prepared them) for destruction,
NKJ Exod. 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
NKJ Exod. 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
NKJ Exod. 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
NKJ Exod. 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
NKJ Exod. 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.
NKJ Exod. 10:1 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,
NKJ Exod. 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
So, how does this hardening work?
Then, when Paul writes his commentary about this, what does he mean by this statement:
NKJ Rom 9:18-22 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared (this is a passive verb, so someone or something had prepared them) for destruction,
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Perhaps!
I know the Father of the risen Son Loves us all, even that King of Egypt.
All or not, does Father God the Father of the Son love us all or not?
I would say, hey yes, because without Christ going to that cross willingly and not giving new life in his risen Life to all, it would be a shamble
Just as 1 Cor 15 speaks of
Evil is still out and about seeking, speaking to who it may devour, and uses emotions of people to get to them, when the risen Son with Father as Won (One) for the people, to believe Father and Son is for them, sees God is living and is God of the living (Not the flesh, the dead) The Spirit of God makes one in belief alive ro God and them personally, if one does believe God?
One will see new and love as called in God Father's lead The Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that led Jesus.
Now there will be a time, when war comes to fruition, many Saints a waiting , to hear that last trumpet, these are willingly waiting for when Father blows that trumpet and the age of grace ends.
Father knew the Pharaoh would not let them go, Father saw this and was that punishment or discipline for Pharaoh to repent (Change his mind) Man pushes, punishes, God my Father disciplines loving us all. Do ask fro the view for you in the risen Son for you too, thank you
So sorry you are not seeing this love beyond measure, you might see this love as people are taking advantage of God. (the Corinthians did at first) if that be what you thinking. Those that my Daddy reveals truth to see this love and then love all over the few they got taught to in religion(s) of this world, that the risen Jesus does not go to Church buildings. (Hebrews 8:1-4) God lives in the people
If Christ were here today alive in the flesh he would not be in any Church building.
Would be in People that go, yet not all, the Building does not save anyone. That only makes one look good in front of others as if they are better than others.
The Fight is between God and Evil, and God won with Son for us all to be given new life in his risen Life. The Sin unto death is: For me at least death remains to those that choose not to believe God
However, any and all are allowed to believe as they see to believe, and see however they see the scriptures to be
God is fair to all, was fair to Pharaoh, was God not?
A Question for you if you answer, or not thanks for your thoughts
God desires no evil, None. Righteousness has no evil, yet in peoples opinions God can be evil when if I get taken out and put away in Hell, then if that be my Father's call, so be it, I trust Daddy, no issues with that, the same as was in Jesus all that way to death willingly for all people. Now the new is here, God restores us, saves our Souls, not our flesh. So be dead to the flesh daily to be alive to God Father and risen Son in God's Spirt and Truth, thank you however you decide
I know the Father of the risen Son Loves us all, even that King of Egypt.
All or not, does Father God the Father of the Son love us all or not?
I would say, hey yes, because without Christ going to that cross willingly and not giving new life in his risen Life to all, it would be a shamble
Just as 1 Cor 15 speaks of
Evil is still out and about seeking, speaking to who it may devour, and uses emotions of people to get to them, when the risen Son with Father as Won (One) for the people, to believe Father and Son is for them, sees God is living and is God of the living (Not the flesh, the dead) The Spirit of God makes one in belief alive ro God and them personally, if one does believe God?
One will see new and love as called in God Father's lead The Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that led Jesus.
Now there will be a time, when war comes to fruition, many Saints a waiting , to hear that last trumpet, these are willingly waiting for when Father blows that trumpet and the age of grace ends.
Father knew the Pharaoh would not let them go, Father saw this and was that punishment or discipline for Pharaoh to repent (Change his mind) Man pushes, punishes, God my Father disciplines loving us all. Do ask fro the view for you in the risen Son for you too, thank you
So sorry you are not seeing this love beyond measure, you might see this love as people are taking advantage of God. (the Corinthians did at first) if that be what you thinking. Those that my Daddy reveals truth to see this love and then love all over the few they got taught to in religion(s) of this world, that the risen Jesus does not go to Church buildings. (Hebrews 8:1-4) God lives in the people
If Christ were here today alive in the flesh he would not be in any Church building.
Would be in People that go, yet not all, the Building does not save anyone. That only makes one look good in front of others as if they are better than others.
The Fight is between God and Evil, and God won with Son for us all to be given new life in his risen Life. The Sin unto death is: For me at least death remains to those that choose not to believe God
However, any and all are allowed to believe as they see to believe, and see however they see the scriptures to be
God is fair to all, was fair to Pharaoh, was God not?
A Question for you if you answer, or not thanks for your thoughts
God desires no evil, None. Righteousness has no evil, yet in peoples opinions God can be evil when if I get taken out and put away in Hell, then if that be my Father's call, so be it, I trust Daddy, no issues with that, the same as was in Jesus all that way to death willingly for all people. Now the new is here, God restores us, saves our Souls, not our flesh. So be dead to the flesh daily to be alive to God Father and risen Son in God's Spirt and Truth, thank you however you decide
Scripture actually tells us why God acted as He did with/toward Pharaoh, hardening his heart.
But all that must get brushed aside too if they cannot even accept that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Seems kind of typical when you think about it though, with all the hatred that gets expressed for God's sovereignty
and for God acting unilaterally. It really seems a lot of people have a major problem with God being God.
But all that must get brushed aside too if they cannot even accept that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Seems kind of typical when you think about it though, with all the hatred that gets expressed for God's sovereignty
and for God acting unilaterally. It really seems a lot of people have a major problem with God being God.
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Pharaoh also started out with a hardened heart, and further hardened it a number of times before God hardened it even more.
“When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.”
Exodus 9:34 NIV
“Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them”
Exodus 10:1 NIV
the offense is by man towards God and the result comes after to amplify Gods glory and righteousness. Then even after comes justification through Jesus Christ by faith
“Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When Israel’s god dealt harshly with them, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?”
1 Samuel 6:6 NIV
““Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness, where your ancestors tested me; they tried me, though they had seen what I did. For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways.’ So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ””
Psalms 95:8-11 NIV
“God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”
Hebrews 4:7-13
There’s always a result or consequence to man’s actions towards God whether good or bad. If we reject God enough he will harden us even more to glorify himself for the many
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it's kind of helpful to understand some of the history here.
there really is no such thing as 'calvanism' - all of his theological positions were written down earlier by Augustine, and all those things, Augustine wrote because he was arguing against what he saw as heresy. the so called 5 points? Calvin never wrote these. people arguing against Arian heresy did later, citing things Calvin had written.
specifically, the idea was present very early on among people that they were responsible for saving themselves - that their decisions, their works, their will, their individual contributions to living a life as a Christian were the things that made them saved. and the reaction of the orthodoxy was whoah there, slow your roll bro. it's God who saves, and Him alone - no one can boast; none of us deserve this, nobody is receiving this except by mercy, and God is God: hence sovereign.
so there is this idea of complete humility vs a kind of subtle humanistic pride happening, even though probably neither side is really trying to be wrong. and down the line it turns into a debate over how free our will really is, and one side accuses the other of alternately damning innocent babies or thinking themselves to be God's puppetmaster.
i rather think the reality is something in between that we are totally incapable as humans of understanding fully. and the physical world ought to be showing us this too, now that our knowledge of it has increased, because you look at a beam of light, and it acts like a particle, but turn your eyes away for a second, and it acts like a wave - it's really both, and it seems to make no sense at all, but it's obvious that it is actually reality. there are hundreds of very clear scriptures that tell us God sovereignly chooses who to save and brings it about, sometimes absolutely despite those peoples will. and there are hundreds of scriptures that tell us humans have free agency that we are culpable for.
it's a mystery and we should respect it. if i have to pick a side in an unresolvable theological issue? i am 100% always picking the one that gives God the most glory and me the least.
there really is no such thing as 'calvanism' - all of his theological positions were written down earlier by Augustine, and all those things, Augustine wrote because he was arguing against what he saw as heresy. the so called 5 points? Calvin never wrote these. people arguing against Arian heresy did later, citing things Calvin had written.
specifically, the idea was present very early on among people that they were responsible for saving themselves - that their decisions, their works, their will, their individual contributions to living a life as a Christian were the things that made them saved. and the reaction of the orthodoxy was whoah there, slow your roll bro. it's God who saves, and Him alone - no one can boast; none of us deserve this, nobody is receiving this except by mercy, and God is God: hence sovereign.
so there is this idea of complete humility vs a kind of subtle humanistic pride happening, even though probably neither side is really trying to be wrong. and down the line it turns into a debate over how free our will really is, and one side accuses the other of alternately damning innocent babies or thinking themselves to be God's puppetmaster.
i rather think the reality is something in between that we are totally incapable as humans of understanding fully. and the physical world ought to be showing us this too, now that our knowledge of it has increased, because you look at a beam of light, and it acts like a particle, but turn your eyes away for a second, and it acts like a wave - it's really both, and it seems to make no sense at all, but it's obvious that it is actually reality. there are hundreds of very clear scriptures that tell us God sovereignly chooses who to save and brings it about, sometimes absolutely despite those peoples will. and there are hundreds of scriptures that tell us humans have free agency that we are culpable for.
it's a mystery and we should respect it. if i have to pick a side in an unresolvable theological issue? i am 100% always picking the one that gives God the most glory and me the least.
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Repentance and faith are essential elements of salvation, yet they are not moral duties required of all people indiscriminately. These are gifts of grace given to the elect by God. A moral duty is an obligation imposed on all humans by God's moral law (e.g., not to lie or steal). A legal duty pertains to the covenant of works or God's requirements for salvation, which no one can fulfill apart from divine grace.
Fallen humanity is spiritually dead and utterly unable to repent or believe in the gospel apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To command repentance as a universal moral duty would imply that humans have the natural ability to fulfill it. Moreover, if repentance is framed as a duty for all, it would imply that fulfilling this duty contributes to one's salvation, which is contrary to the doctrines of grace.
As J.C. Philpot states, 'Salvation is not the fruit of our works, but the purchase of the blood of Christ.'
Christ's atonement was particular and sufficient to secure the salvation of the elect. The call to repentance is still required, but it is effectual and specific to the elect, not as a general obligation for all humanity. This is also entailed by the rejection of common grace and the 'well-meant offer,' which John Gill, Gordon Clark, and Kuyper certainly did. As Philpot further observes, 'The offer of the gospel is not a general offer to all men, but a special and effectual call to the elect.'
Fallen humanity is spiritually dead and utterly unable to repent or believe in the gospel apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To command repentance as a universal moral duty would imply that humans have the natural ability to fulfill it. Moreover, if repentance is framed as a duty for all, it would imply that fulfilling this duty contributes to one's salvation, which is contrary to the doctrines of grace.
As J.C. Philpot states, 'Salvation is not the fruit of our works, but the purchase of the blood of Christ.'
Christ's atonement was particular and sufficient to secure the salvation of the elect. The call to repentance is still required, but it is effectual and specific to the elect, not as a general obligation for all humanity. This is also entailed by the rejection of common grace and the 'well-meant offer,' which John Gill, Gordon Clark, and Kuyper certainly did. As Philpot further observes, 'The offer of the gospel is not a general offer to all men, but a special and effectual call to the elect.'
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Rom. 9:22 NKJ)
It seems like we see similarly. God's enduring - His bearing in patience - these vessels of wrath was in effect a cooperative effort of their being prepared for destruction. Maybe a giving of enough rope and they hang themselves type of analogy.
It seems in truth He is rightfully able to do this with any and all of us but for mercy and grace, etc. It is fascinating to ponder how He determines. I still think Jesus gives us some insight in John4:20-24 and the theme is throughout Scripture with the One who can discern the thoughts and intents of hearts.
It seems like we see similarly. God's enduring - His bearing in patience - these vessels of wrath was in effect a cooperative effort of their being prepared for destruction. Maybe a giving of enough rope and they hang themselves type of analogy.
It seems in truth He is rightfully able to do this with any and all of us but for mercy and grace, etc. It is fascinating to ponder how He determines. I still think Jesus gives us some insight in John4:20-24 and the theme is throughout Scripture with the One who can discern the thoughts and intents of hearts.
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