Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

You’ll notice the tactic of never actually replying to anything you’ve said but
turning and making you defend something you weren’t even talking about lol ….

It was the beginning of the end... when I said people denigrate Cam's method and you said you had been told you were denigrating him.

Even when asked about it you could not see how subtly you had changed what I said.

It all went downhill from there.

I had started out trying to help you understand an element of what the convo was about, since you were not grasping it.

That was the thanks I got. Yes. So sad.

 

[Rufus]

I never said the prince of this world has anything in any believer. However, as I said the other day ...

"the wicked one cannot affect us directly ... the wicked one can only affect us indirectly (i.e. through others)."





the only way we can resist the devil is to draw near to God

James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
.

Nice bit of eisegesis. John didn't say that in 1Jn 5. His statement is UNQUALIFIED, so why do you pervert the passage by qualifying it?

 

[Rufus]

The flesh forbids the soul the freedom to know the truth.

God with His powerhouse of Grace grabs the flesh and binds it up while God grants that soul a free hearing.

Without grace? No one.

It's no wonder at all that so few in the world embrace the Message of Life, since God gives his grace only to the humble. And humility hardly describes the spiritual condition of the ungodly world.

 

[Genez]

Proverbs 26 v 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26 v 4-5

So you can quote Scripture...

Who else used that quoting Scripture technique?

“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:​

​

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,​

and they will lift you up in their hands,​

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”​

​

Matthew 4:6​

Why was Satan knowing what the Scriptures say?
Yet, like some here?
He kept distorting them to his own advantage.

FYI...
My brother was commissioned to create the background and characters of the animation film, "The Lord of the Rings" by Ralph Bakshi. Your work is OK... But, artwork has its limits, and does nothing to expound needed insight into the truth in itself.

Anyone can quote Scripture.
Knowing what it means, not everyone can do.

Proverbs 4:5-9

Get wisdom; get insight: do not forget nor turn away
from the words of my mouth.
Do not forsake her, and she will keep you;
love her, and she will guard you.
The beginning of wisdom is this: get wisdom,
and whatever else you get, get insight.
Prize her highly, and she will exalt you;
she will honor you if you embrace her.
She will place on your head a fair garland;
she will bestow on you a beautiful crown.”


It is never too late!
​

 

[Rufus]

You really have no clue to what I am saying. I never said anything about 2 people.

You clearly implied it! The writers of the NT wrote only to first century believers. The rest of divine revelation is irrelevant to subsequent generations. Besides....I'd bet my last dollar that you're a big advocate for Dispensationalism, right? And in that crazy, wonky eschatological system there's at least two of everything! So, it fits in with how you view the NT and to whom it applies.

 

[Genez]

It's no wonder at all that so few in the world embrace the Message of Life, since God gives his grace only to the humble. And humility hardly describes the spiritual condition of the ungodly world.

That grace to the humble message - was directed to those who are already saved.

For the unsaved?

God SOVEREIGNLY does a work of His grace power to make an unsaved soul to be placed into a place where that soul was made to be free of the sin nature, to make its own choice.

The choice is therefore their own soul's choice...
Which makes that soul fully accountable for judgment, or salvation.

Come on!
Make sense of God!
Why do you think it says?
"Saved by grace?

Calvinists do not understand correctly the function of the soul in relation to the influence over it by the body.
They even see the soul as completely depraved, not just the tyrannical dominating flesh over the helpless soul.

Make sense of God!
God makes sense!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It was the beginning of the end... when I said people denigrate Cam's method and you said you had been told you were denigrating him.

Even when asked about it you could not see how subtly you had changed what I said.

It all went downhill from there.

I had started out trying to help you understand an element of what the convo was about, since you were not grasping it.

That was the thanks I got. Yes. So sad.

Yeah … someone has done you wrong again as you’re trying hard to solve problems.

 

[cv5]

You’ll notice the tactic of never actually replying to anything you’ve said but turning and making you defend something you weren’t even talking about lol ….

this is how I feel after some of these discussions

Sowers of chaos shall reap......__________?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

sir I really want you to believe me when I say I believe this also.

That I believe there is a living spirit we have also but is all of that spirit living for the unsaved . But the spiritual presence with God,I have concerns
.
Btw this was a really thoughtful post sir,

We lost our spiritual presence with God, is something I've also been pondering in the same light as you.

But what died in us ? A severance of our ability to communicate with God.

Is this simply as that there. Is this simply what your seeing ?

“sir I really want you to believe me when I say I believe this also.

That I believe there is a living spirit we have “

yeah I agreed with you …..and provided some scripture to show that it’s a biblical belief to have about whether man has a spirit or not from the beginning.

“but is all of that spirit living for the unsaved . “

this guy died and was buried …..is his spirit alive or dead ?

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-24‬ ‭

Are these spirits dead ? Or were they in a spiritual prison spoken of in tbe Old Testament prophets ?

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had been dead physically for thousands of years in the flood yet after he died he went by the spirit and preached to theie spirits which were imprisoned as was foretold and not dead .
If bad people who do evil things have no spirit how are they going to be held accountable ke after they die like the bible says ? They have wicked and rebellious spirits not dead ones everyone has a living spirit some choose good and others choose evil and reap the rewards of either

 

[cv5]

when I said people denigrate Cam's method and you said you had been told you were denigrating him.

No, not denigrating @Cameron143 's "methods". Not at all.
What we are doing is conducting a forensic analysis of his so-called "methods".

The results of which are as follows:

A while back you told me to go back to the drawing board. I didn't tell you that it at that time already contained at least 5 logical fallacies you had put forth by then. I simply highlighted only one of them.

Your response here contains at least seven of such errors: circular reasoning, equivocation, begging the question, false cause, straw man, lexical dismissal, and ad hominem. Redefining terms, then using those redefinitions to override both BDAG and Scripture, doesn’t clarify—it compounds the error. Ignoring or overriding established lexical tools like BDAG is already a substantial problem evidenced in your reasoning and methods. Compounding that with this many logical violations makes the argument too incoherent to take remotely seriously.

Perhaps you are out of the loop, but no rational actor around here takes @Cameron143 seriously.

 

[Rufus]

That grace to the humble message - was directed to those who are already saved.

For the unsaved?

God SOVEREIGNLY does a work of His grace power to make an unsaved soul to be placed into a place where that soul was made to be free of the sin nature, to make its own choice.

The choice is therefore their own soul's choice...
Which makes that soul fully accountable for judgment, or salvation.

Come on!
Make sense of God!
Why do you think it says?
"Saved by grace?

Calvinists do not understand correctly the function of the soul in relation to the influence over it by the body.
They even see the soul as completely depraved, not just the tyrannical dominating flesh over the helpless soul.

Make sense of God!
God makes sense!

That's a bald-faced lie! The truth I shared is a spiritual principle taught throughout the bible!

Ps 18:27
27 You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
NIV

Ps 25:9
9 He guides the humble in what is right
and teaches them his way.
NIV

Ps 76:9
9 When God arose to judgment,
To save all the humble of the earth.
NASB

Ps 147:6
6 The LORD sustains the humble
but casts the wicked to the ground.
NIV

Ps 149:4
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.
NIV

Prov 3:34
34 He mocks proud mockers
but gives grace to the humble .
NIV

James and Peter knew this as well when they penned Jas 4:6 and 1Pet 5:5, respectively. God hates the proud!

Prov 16:5
5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
NIV

And,

Ps 101:5
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
I will not endure.
ESV

And,

Prov 6:16-17
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
NIV

So, deceiver, have any more lies to share in the hope that you'll deceive God's true people!? This spiritual principle alone is a wrecking ball to another the FWer lie that says God gives grace to all people in the world w/o exception because he "wills" for all people to be saved.

 

[GWH]

Folks,

We have just lost a wonderful Christian brother.

Let us try to be more like him, who was like Jesus.
Our squabbles are so insignificant!

 

[cv5]

That's a bald-faced lie! The truth I shared is a spiritual principle taught throughout the bible!

Ps 18:27
27 You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
NIV

Ps 25:9
9 He guides the humble in what is right
and teaches them his way.
NIV

Ps 76:9
9 When God arose to judgment,
To save all the humble of the earth.
NASB

Ps 147:6
6 The LORD sustains the humble
but casts the wicked to the ground.
NIV

Ps 149:4
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.
NIV

Prov 3:34
34 He mocks proud mockers
but gives grace to the humble .
NIV

James and Peter knew this as well when they penned Jas 4:6 and 1Pet 5:5, respectively. God hates the proud!

Prov 16:5
5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
NIV

And,

Ps 101:5
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
I will not endure.
ESV

And,

Prov 6:16-17
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
NIV

So, deceiver, have any more lies to share in the hope that you'll deceive God's true people!? This spiritual principle alone is a wrecking ball to another the FWer lie that says God gives grace to all people in the world w/o exception because he "wills" for all people to be saved.

Rage on. The wise and discerning around here are keeping score buddy.

We know exactly who's who in the zoo believe it

 

[Jordon]

“sir I really want you to believe me when I say I believe this also.

That I believe there is a living spirit we have “

yeah I agreed with you …..and provided some scripture to show that it’s a biblical belief to have about whether man has a spirit or not from the beginning.

“but is all of that spirit living for the unsaved . “

this guy died and was buried …..is his spirit alive or dead ?

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-24‬ ‭

Are these spirits dead ? Or were they in a spiritual prison spoken of in tbe Old Testament prophets ?

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had been dead physically for thousands of years in the flood yet after he died he went by the spirit and preached to theie spirits which were imprisoned as was foretold and not dead .
If bad people who do evil things have no spirit how are they going to be held accountable ke after they die like the bible says ? They have wicked and rebellious spirits not dead ones everyone has a living spirit some choose good and others choose evil and reap the rewards of either

it's difficult to now carry on in this discussion.

I don't know what I could say that would make a difference, without it causing your heart and faith to suffer.
What you said earlier brought a tear to my eye.
Ecclesiastes old t also refers to the separation of the body upon death, the body returns to the earth and the spirit the breath of life in which was breathed into Adam returns to God.

But some people believe only that's for a divine reunion, others believe it's also to be held accountable to God,

It's difficult to fully understand how the breath of life and spirit of God could die in any person.

I do know that much, and it's so difficult to say it without making anyone fret or worry or hurt there love For God.

But we know his life and breath can be made alive in Christ by receiving the holy spirit which we can use to rise above any worry.

Take care bye for now.

 

[studier]

Rage on.

Amazing, isn't it?

 

[HeIsHere]

You’ll notice the tactic of never actually replying to anything you’ve said but turning and making you defend something you weren’t even talking about lol ….

this is how I feel after some of these discussions

Very true and very annoying! Thank you!!!

Sometimes we are so caught up in the dialogue we do not immediately see the tactic being used.

 

[Genez]

That's a bald-faced lie! The truth I shared is a spiritual principle taught throughout the bible!

Ps 18:27
27 You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
NIV

Ps 25:9
9 He guides the humble in what is right
and teaches them his way.
NIV

Ps 76:9
9 When God arose to judgment,
To save all the humble of the earth.
NASB

Ps 147:6
6 The LORD sustains the humble
but casts the wicked to the ground.
NIV

Ps 149:4
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.
NIV

Prov 3:34
34 He mocks proud mockers
but gives grace to the humble .
NIV

James and Peter knew this as well when they penned Jas 4:6 and 1Pet 5:5, respectively. God hates the proud!

Prov 16:5
5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
NIV

And,

Ps 101:5
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
I will not endure.
ESV

And,

Prov 6:16-17
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
NIV

So, deceiver, have any more lies to share in the hope that you'll deceive God's true people!? This spiritual principle alone is a wrecking ball to another the FWer lie that says God gives grace to all people in the world w/o exception because he "wills" for all people to be saved.

Those passages you quoted could pertain to arrogant believers and arrogant unbelievers.
Context will determine which one it is.

There are humble believers.
There are also arrogant believers.
Both are saved.
Both are not delivered just because they are saved.

1 Corinthians 11:30-32

​

For this reason, many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. ​

For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. ​

But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not ​

be condemned with the world.​

When God draws someone unsaved?
The drawing process must be able to humble them before that person is to be handed over to Jesus for salvation. .

After salvation, some believers can, and do, live arrogantly.

1 John 5:16-17

​

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, ​

you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does ​

not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you ​

should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not ​

lead to death. ​

Arrogant believers end up experiencing the sin onto death.
Having no peace in their dying.
But!
They are saved because they humbled themselves at the moment they believed!
Then, some snap back into living in human confidence (arrogance) about themselves.

God does not save the arrogant believer from his troubles.
So I pray you will learn to get the context of those passages you cite.
Some were directed at His people who became arrogant before God.

grace and peace ..........

 

[HeIsHere]

That sounds like the conviction is coming from the heart and conscience of the individual. The Spirit isn't doing any convicting. He is simply informing. Is this your position?
Who or what persuaded the belief? Who or what actually convinced the person of truth?

There are those loaded questions again, it is quite comical now.

Regeneration does not precede faith, God does not sanctify a person prior to faith and justification.

Please stick to what is in scripture.

 

[Genez]

That sounds like the conviction is coming from the heart and conscience of the individual. The Spirit isn't doing any convicting. He is simply informing. Is this your position?
Who or what persuaded the belief? Who or what actually convinced the person of truth?

Offered something as to persuade if willing to reason.
The same persuasive argument one can also refuse if so desired.

God does not make one to believe.
He simply provides what is needed to believe, if one wants to believe.

You just can not fathom someone being free to, and not wanting to believe.
Like Satan did.....

 

[Cameron143]

There are those loaded questions again, it is quite comical now.

Regeneration does not precede faith, God does not sanctify a person prior to faith and justification.

Please stick to what is in scripture.

You just agreed with another poster who said people don't actually address what is being posted, and then don't address the post.

@studier posted that the conviction of the Spirit merely was the Spirit informing an individual of truth. It's ridiculous on its face and I began to show why. Now I'm attempting to find out who agrees with the position. Are you afraid to share your understanding? Is he right? If not, why didn't you tell him?