Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

Since John excluded Israel (i.e. "our sins") from the "sins of the whole world", then logically the qualified phrase must be understood in the limited sense as referring to the Gentile nations of the world.

now you're re-writing what was written in 1 John to fit some sort of nonsense you hold to.

Go back and read 1 John 1 ... the whole chapter ... because there is no mention of "Israel" or "Gentile nations" ... you can even read all three epistles of John ... the term "Israel" does not appear in any of the John's epistles.

you make stuff up so you can exclude or include according to your dogma (i.e. re-write Scripture).

If John wanted to use the phrase "whole world" in the distributive sense, he could have just as easily have said something along these lines: "and also for the sins of the rest of the world", or for the sins of the other nations as well", etc. In either of these cases, John would have included Israel in with the "whole world".

more nonsense concerning John having "excluded Israel".

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Who are you to state God has to write His Word in the manner you dictate ... God stated what He stated and because you don't like what God stated you complain about what God stated ... then re-write Scripture to state what God did not state.
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[reneweddaybyday]

You have already conceded essentially that YOU personally (along with all other professing Christians of course) are under the thumb (control) of the evil one, which does not put you in a very good place at all.

again ... what you say I say is not what I said ... just more of your re-writing ... doesn't surprise me ... you treat Scripture in the same manner.

You have been blinded so long by the evil one that you have grown to love the darkness, haven't you?

lie

You have grown so accustomed to it, you wouldn't know what to do without it and would shrink back from the Light -- and the POWER of the ONE born of God who keeps his people safe.

the one who "would shrink back from the Light" is the one who doesn't like the way God wrote His Word ... so complains that He shouldn't have written His word the way He wrote it ... and tells people they said stuff they never said ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

FTFM!

FTFY!
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[reneweddaybyday]

So I pray you will learn to get the context of those passages you cite.

joining with you in prayer for this outcome ... in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ...
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[Jordon]

1 Timothy 2:4, which states, "who desires all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
The scriptures say otherwise

how's it going friend,

Could I get your views on something.

Have you ever wondered whether nature has any law ?

Maybe you haven't

But now that I've mentioned it what would you say if there was a law to nature it would most likely be

 

[Jordon]

joining with you in prayer for this outcome ... in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ...
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that's nice sister, would you like to say a prayer

 

[Blain]

how's it going friend,

Could I get your views on something.

Have you ever wondered whether nature has any law ?

Maybe you haven't

But now that I've mentioned it what would you say if there was a law to nature it would most likely be

Law of nature? interesting, I suppose there would be after all animals always act on instincts the same with insects trees and plants always grow as intended and gravity remains the same as well. there is an order of how things work in this existance and I suppose this would be the law of nature

 

[Rufus]

You're of course absolutely correct about the Joshua context. A command to make a choice is also included in Joshua24:15 and they made it per Joshua24:21-22.

It's interesting how we've been asking this change from a devout determinist. But their system is a self-insulating and self-validating loop:

• We don't change unless God changes us.
• God isn't changing me.
• I don't need to change.

Same for humility:

• God gives grace to the humble
• God gives me grace.
• I'm humble.

Of course, you are! In your arrogant, prideful heart you pride yourself as being naturally humble by nature, don't you!? I bet you think you're more humble than Jesus Christ himself, don't you!? You truly have redefined what it means to be self-deceived!

Furthermore, there's no way you can objectively substantiate that God has ever given YOU grace. Scripture is filled with examples of false prophets, false teachers, false professors of faith, tares, etc. Tell me, Mr. Studier, is it by God's grace that you disobey scripture by habitually forsaking the assembly of believers!? Is it by God's grace that you continue in this sin!? Is it by God's grace that you think so highly of yourself that you're too good to attach yourself to a local body of believers because you think you're such a hotshot paragon of knowledge, wisdom and understanding, and so this give you the right to look down your long condescending snout at Christ's Church? You remind me of the Pharisees whom Jesus unflatteringly characterized as whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones! The stench of your self-righteousness is overbearing!

But as for me and my household our humility is found only in our Federal Head who came into this world as a lowly, meek, mild, humble Servant of his God and my God! But your pride will not allow you to accept this truth because of the profound implications to it. Since the saints' humility was also imputed to them, along with Christ's righteousness, then this can only mean that God's elect whom God predestined in Christ in eternity are the only ones for whom Christ died! When God in eternity looks at his saints, he sees them only through the perfect righteousness and holiness of his Beloved Son; He sees not so much as a scintilla of sin in any of his saints! So...your second syllogism is just as intellectually, logically and biblically bankrupt as your first one!

Your first one assumes that man has the ability to change his nature. But he doesn't! Man's sin nature is immutable! That's what Jer 13:23 is all about -- even though you tried to con us into believing with your very lame metaphor argument that implied the Ethiopian and leopard can learn to change, since Israel "learned" to sin, according to your favored translation. But the reality is that mankind has no power to change its essence, anymore than God does! And Joshua was proven right and justified in his words since Israel's history was so abysmal, in spite of Israel's "willingness" to change (Josh 24:21-22). Your memory is so selectively shot that you conveniently forget Israel's shameful history, so here's a little synopsis for you. That self-change, pull-yourself-up-by-your bootstraps thingy didn't work out so swell for them!

Ps 78:1-79:1
78:1 Tell the Coming Generation

A Maskil of Asaph.
1 Give ear, O my people, to my teaching;incline your ears to the words of my mouth!2 I will open my mouth in a parable;I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known,that our fathers have told us.4 We will not hide them from their children,but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the Lord, and his might,and the wonders that he has done.

5 He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel,which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children,6 that the next generation might know them,the children yet unborn,and arise and tell them to their children,7 so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God,but keep his commandments; 8 and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation,a generation whose heart was not steadfast,whose spirit was not faithful to God.

9 The Ephraimites, armed with the bow, turned back on the day of battle.10 They did not keep God's covenant,but refused to walk according to his law.11 They forgot his works and the wonders that he had shown them.12 In the sight of their fathers he performed wonders in the land of Egypt, in the fields of Zoan.13 He divided the sea and let them pass through it,and made the waters stand like a heap.14 In the daytime he led them with a cloud,and all the night with a fiery light.15 He split rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.16 He made streams come out of the rock and caused waters to flow down like rivers.

17 Yet they sinned still more against him, rebelling against the Most High in the desert.18 They tested God in their heart by demanding the food they craved.19 They spoke against God, saying, "Can God spread a table in the wilderness?20 He struck the rock so that water gushed out and streams overflowed.Can he also give bread or provide meat for his people?"

21 Therefore, when the Lord heard, he was full of wrath; a fire was kindled against Jacob;his anger rose against Israel, 22 because they did not believe in God and did not trust his saving power. 23 Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,24 and he rained down on them manna to eat and gave them the grain of heaven. 25 Man ate of the bread of the angels;he sent them food in abundance. 26 He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens,and by his power he led out the south wind; 27 he rained meat on them like dust,winged birds like the sand of the seas; 28 he let them fall in the midst of their camp,all around their dwellings. 29 And they ate and were well filled,for he gave them what they craved. 30 But before they had satisfied their craving, while the food was still in their mouths, 31 the anger of God rose against them,and he killed the strongest of them and laid low the young men of Israel.

32 In spite of all this, they still sinned; despite his wonders, they did not believe. 33 So he made their days vanish like a breath, and their years in terror. 34 When he killed them, they sought him;they repented and sought God earnestly. 35 They remembered that God was their rock,the Most High God their redeemer. 36 But they flattered him with their mouths;they lied to him with their tongues. 37 Their heart was not steadfast toward him;they were not faithful to his covenant.38 Yet he, being compassionate, atoned for their iniquity and did not destroy them;he restrained his anger often and did not stir up all his wrath.39 He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.40 How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!41 They tested God again and again and provoked the Holy One of Israel.42 They did not remember his power or the day when he redeemed them from the foe, 43 when he performed his signs in Egypt and his marvels in the fields of Zoan. 44 He turned their rivers to blood,so that they could not drink of their streams. 45 He sent among them swarms of flies, which devoured them,and frogs, which destroyed them. 46 He gave their crops to the destroying locust and the fruit of their labor to the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hail and their sycamores with frost. 48 He gave over their cattle to the hail and their flocks to thunderbolts.49 He let loose on them his burning anger,wrath, indignation, and distress,a company of destroying angels. 50 He made a path for his anger;he did not spare them from death,but gave their lives over to the plague. 51 He struck down every firstborn in Egypt,the firstfruits of their strength in the tents of Ham.52 Then he led out his people like sheep and guided them in the wilderness like a flock. 53 He led them in safety, so that they were not afraid,but the sea overwhelmed their enemies. 54 And he brought them to his holy land, to the mountain which his right hand had won. 55 He drove out nations before them;he apportioned them for a possession and settled the tribes of Israel in their tents.

56 Yet they tested and rebelled against the Most High God and did not keep his testimonies, 57 but turned away and acted treacherously like their fathers;they twisted like a deceitful bow. 58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places;they moved him to jealousy with their idols. 59 When God heard, he was full of wrath,and he utterly rejected Israel.60 He forsook his dwelling at Shiloh,the tent where he dwelt among mankind, 61 and delivered his power to captivity,his glory to the hand of the foe. 62 He gave his people over to the sword and vented his wrath on his heritage. 63 Fire devoured their young men,and their young women had no marriage song. 64 Their priests fell by the sword,and their widows made no lamentation. 65 Then the Lord awoke as from sleep,like a strong man shouting because of wine. 66 And he put his adversaries to rout;he put them to everlasting shame. 67 He rejected the tent of Joseph;he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 but he chose the tribe of Judah,Mount Zion, which he loves. 69 He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,like the earth, which he has founded forever. 70 He chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds; 71 from following the nursing ewes he brought him to shepherd Jacob his people,Israel his inheritance. 72 With upright heart he shepherded them and guided them with his skillful hand.
ESV

 

[Pilgrimshope]

it's difficult to now carry on in this discussion.

I don't know what I could say that would make a difference, without it causing your heart and faith to suffer.
What you said earlier brought a tear to my eye.
Ecclesiastes old t also refers to the separation of the body upon death, the body returns to the earth and the spirit the breath of life in which was breathed into Adam returns to God.

But some people believe only that's for a divine reunion, others believe it's also to be held accountable to God,

It's difficult to fully understand how the breath of life and spirit of God could die in any person.

I do know that much, and it's so difficult to say it without making anyone fret or worry or hurt there love For God.

But we know his life and breath can be made alive in Christ by receiving the holy spirit which we can use to rise above any worry.

Take care bye for now.

Take care also and God bless

 

[cv5]

Really?

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Yea........really.
Just to let you know, there are a lot of people here who actually understand those passages in context both OT and NT.
Because they are mature believers wise and of full age.

Heb 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Someone exercised their free will to murder a Christian brother today.
May he be caught and justice done.

Praying for Charlie Kirk's family ...

Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
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[Rufus]

How come you and your crew failed so miserably to shoehorn the Luke 7 event into some kind of Calvinist straitjacket?
Granted, it was uproarious to watch you and your homies thrashing about fitfully while trying.

Two things: A) I don't have a "crew"? B) I have no idea what you're talking about with Luke 7.

 

[Magenta]

Really?

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Matthew 13 verses 16-17 Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

 

[Rufus]

Yea........really.
Just to let you know, there are a lot of people here who actually understand those passages in context both OT and NT.
Because they are mature believers wise and of full age.

Heb 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Yeah...but do YOU!?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Cannot doesn't = will not! Joshua didn't tell the Israelites that they will not serve the Lord or won't serve the Lord -- but cannot serve.
And besides, was Joshua wrong? Were not the Israelites a stubborn, stiff-necked, apostate covenant breakers?

Why can't YOU believe what Joshua said?

I do believe what Joshua said ... read the verse in its fuller context and believe what God writes in His Word:

Joshua 24:

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.

30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathserah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash.

31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.


Clearly Joshua told the people that they could not serve the Lord if they forsake Him and serve idols.

Quit ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them and then holding up the verses you rip from the context to prop up your error. You are to bring your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.

 

[Magenta]

You're of course absolutely correct about the Joshua context. A command to make a choice is also included in Joshua24:15 and they made it per Joshua24:21-22.

It's interesting how we've been asking this change from a devout determinist. But their system is a self-insulating and self-validating loop:

• We don't change unless God changes us.
• God isn't changing me.
• I don't need to change.

Same for humility:

• God gives grace to the humble
• God gives me grace.
• I'm humble.

Do you think you need to change? Yes or no would suffice for an answer. Are you as humble as you could be?

 

[Jordon]

Law of nature? interesting, I suppose there would be after all animals always act on instincts the same with insects trees and plants always grow as intended and gravity remains the same as well. there is an order of how things work in this existance and I suppose this would be the law of nature

excellent

I'll talk more later, but for now a closing thought,

The law of nature in the deep blue sea, for some creatures is to swarm together in order that they have more of a chance of survival, when predators are near

Should this how it should be for Christians

 

[BillyBob]

Yea........really.
Just to let you know, there are a lot of people here who actually understand those passages in context both OT and NT.
Because they are mature believers wise and of full age.

“a lot of people here who actually understand”?
Don't kid yourself! You select those that you believe understand, simply because they support your belief. We all do that! They could be 10 yrs old and you will still support them because they are in lock-step with your understanding, and they offer support in times that you are at a loss for words.
It has absolutely nothing to do with age!

 

[cv5]

I do believe what Joshua said ... read the verse in its fuller context and believe what God writes in His Word:

Joshua 24:

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.

30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathserah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash.

31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.


Clearly Joshua told the people that they could not serve the Lord if they forsake Him and serve idols.

Quit ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them and then holding up the verses you rip from the context to prop up your error. You are to bring your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.

Did all of the Calvinists (each and every one without exception) drop the ball again? Pity.

 

[rogerg]

Yea........really.
Just to let you know, there are a lot of people here who actually understand those passages in context both OT and NT.
Because they are mature believers wise and of full age.

I actually expected that kind of reply from you.