Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

Actually, you have living people as zombies, but you can always visit the local grave yard for your next mission trip.

Salvation is predicated upon an intimate, personal private transaction between the sinner and God. A living person and a living God.
In all cases. Exemplified by the woman of Luke 7.

No doubt that this woman had to OVERCOME the mind games of doomer religious frauds and pseudo-philosophical self-appointed gurus and pharisaical overlords of her time as well.......and strive to GET TO JESUS.

Mission accomplished!

 

[cv5]

Spiritual discernment. Quite the gift.

Us hayseed hillbilly types are full of surprises......

 

[Rufus]

The teaching of the parable is saying that yes we plant the seeds but it will not always be received and he shows that the seeds are planted on all kinds of soil meaning the gospel is preached to all people but if it was 100 successful then all the soil would recieve it.

The idea that he is able to 100 percent be successful in your understanding that he saves who he wants is not found in this parable it clearly shows he desired for the gospel and the kingdom to be recieved otherwise we would not be planting the seeds on all kinds of soil

Of course, it's found in the parable. You're still assuming that God has always intended to save each and every person in the world which is not true! He has never decreed the salvation of all men -- and this has been so since the very beginning right after the Fall! There is a 100% success rate for all the seed that falls on GOOD soil!

If God decreed the salvation of all men in the distributive sense we'd find a redemptive covenant that a covenant-making God made with the entire world. But where is such a covenant found in scripture?

 

[cv5]

Of course, it's found in the parable. You're still assuming that God has always intended to save each and every person in the world which is not true! He has never decreed the salvation of all men -- and this has been so since the very beginning right after the Fall! There is a 100% success rate for all the seed that falls on GOOD soil!

If God decreed the salvation of all men in the distributive sense we'd find a redemptive covenant that a covenant-making God made with the entire world. But where is such a covenant found in scripture?

Then I guess you and the Lord Jesus don't see eye-to-eye on this huh?
From what I see, the same could be said of literally everything else you purport to believe.

[1Ti 2:3 KJV]
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

[1Ti 2:4 KJV]
Who "will-have" G2309 all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to will, have in mind, intend
   1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
   2. to desire, to wish
   3. to love
      1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
   4. to take delight in, have pleasure

 

[Rufus]

The serpent did not say they would gain all knowledge of good and evil. They already had knowledge of God,
Who is good. And we already know what would have happened had they eaten from the Tree of Life and that
is why it was thereafter barred to them. God knew what they were going to do before they did it...

Yup, He sure did and not by mere prescience either. The Fall of mankind is the first prophecy in scripture (Gen 2:17)! And we can know with even more certitude that God decreed the Fall since He cast Satan and his demonic hordes down to this earth, instead of straight to hell after they sinned in heaven.

 

[Magenta]

Lack of understanding. LOL

Yes, your lack of understanding, which includes but may not be limited to (as the list grows all the time):

Scripture says, the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. In your view, it can. Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit to or obey God. In your view, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God. In your view, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. In your view, he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. In your view, it can. Scripture says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. In your view, he is not. Scripture says the gospel is hid. You say the gospel is not hid. Jesus said not everyone hears. You says everyone hear. Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. You of course disagree. The flesh in your theology chooses to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures says it cannot, to bring forth fruit unto life. Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. You call this, man having a will that is free. No matter how you look at it, your theological stance on this issue directly contradicts and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates, and you is not likely to change it any time soon because to bring your view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring your whole house of cards down, and demolish your vain self-exalting stance. Your error/lack of misunderstanding also has you repeatedly conflating spiritual separation from God with being physically dead, so that when people speak of how the unregenerated man, he without the Spirit of God indwelling him which is what brings spiritual life, you tell people to go preach in cemeteries, and then you blatantly lie about it. You often say man is equipped with everything he needs to come to believe but this is definitely not true according to Scripture. You also mock and scoff the means Jesus said was how people come to know God. You agree with those who blaspheme God, possibly because you do so yourself, and then tell us you are defending His character.

 

[cv5]

Yes, your lack of understanding, which includes but may not be limited to (as the list grows all the time):

Scripture says, the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. In your view, it can. Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit to or obey God. In your view, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God. In your view, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. In your view, he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. In your view, it can. Scripture says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. In your view, he is not. Scripture says the gospel is hid. You say the gospel is not hid. Jesus said not everyone hears. You says everyone hear. Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. You of course disagree. The flesh in your theology chooses to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures says it cannot, to bring forth fruit unto life. Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. You call this, man having a will that is free. No matter how you look at it, your theological stance on this issue directly contradicts and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates, and you is not likely to change it any time soon because to bring your view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring your whole house of cards down, and demolish your vain self-exalting stance. Your error/lack of misunderstanding also has you repeatedly conflating spiritual separation from God with being physically dead, so that when people speak of how the unregenerated man, he without the Spirit of God indwelling him which is what brings spiritual life, you tell people to go preach in cemeteries, and then you blatantly lie about it. You often say man is equipped with everything he needs to come to believe but this is definitely not true according to Scripture. You also mock and scoff the means Jesus said was how people come to know God. You agree with those who blaspheme God, possibly because you do so yourself, and then tell us you are defending His character.

"you tell people (Calvinists) to go preach in cemeteries"

Isn't that exactly what you are doing by your own manifold definitions?
I mean the whole world is a gigantic cemetery of God's making as far as you are concerned. Right?

 

[Magenta]

Thanks magenta, I appreciate your thoughtful kind words about my mum,

Many people believe like your mum, it's a very special event at church, baptising your new born baby, that may have been the day you got blessed with wisdom, who knows
Could I get your views on this

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

We know that Adam was anointed in some way to be guardian of the garden and the animals a keeper of sought. God told his nature in a way that you where to rule over the animals.

Would that also be a kind of cherub ?

Also this is God speaking to the king of tyre, was God saying your nature was once in the garden to the king of tyre, because theres no reference to say he was in the garden, so was he speaking to his nature ? Was our nature once spiritual ? So much so we where classed as cherubs, or was this the same nature that was in the garden.

So point in making is even your nature now, was once in the garden. In other words we all have the same nature as Adam ?

You are welcome! After the fall, Scripture says Adam's children were born after the image and likeness of him, whereas Adam had been made in the image of God. However, even being made in the image of God, Adam was of the natural world and was as much in need of being born again of the Spirit to attain to life ever after as we are. He relinquished his ability to do so by eating of the tree that promised death instead of life, and of course God knew that would be his choice, since Jesus was already purposed. Cherubs are angels, and the verses about the angel in Eden are sometimes taken to be speaking of Satan, and relating his pride- which was the reason for his downfall (same as man)- to that of the King of Tyre and his downfall, as prophesied by Ezekiel. Ezekiel describes the king as becoming so full of self-importance from his success and beauty that he became like a god. This pride caused his ultimate ruin, with some interpretations seeing it as a symbol of human arrogance and a parallel to Satan's fall. Angels were not men and men will not be angels.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Like I said, Jesus had no sin. The prince of this world has nothing in Him. If one is in Christ, the prince of this world has nothing in you.

I never said the prince of this world has anything in any believer. However, as I said the other day ...

"the wicked one cannot affect us directly ... the wicked one can only affect us indirectly (i.e. through others)."

He may tempt you, but if you resist, he will flee from you.

the only way we can resist the devil is to draw near to God

James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I agree, yet I disagree! To some degree we are still held sway to his influence. Satan is not at rest with his attacks, and he is very clever in knowing where we are most vulnerable.
Scripture tells us in Rom 7:18-20 that we are in a constant battle to fight against the sin that clings to us. We are in the process of being sanctified. But, we must not be like little children saying “Are we there yet”, but be ever alert in our walk with God.

I guess that is why repentance should not be a one-time thing!

we can still overcome the sway of the influence of satan as we stand strong in the Lord ...

Ephesians 6:10-13 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
.

 

[Jordon]

Is disrespecting your elders part of your philosophy of dominance, superiority and pride?
I would urge you to consider all of the free will elements here:

This woman came to Jesus of her own free will....she was not dragged kicking and screaming.
Consequently, both love and forgiveness were displayed and both were FREELY GIVEN.

[Luk 7:40 NKJV]
And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." So he said, "Teacher, say it."

[Luk 7:41 NKJV]
"There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.

[Luk 7:42 NKJV]
"And when they had nothing with which to repay, he ***freely*** forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?"

[Luk 7:43 NKJV]
Simon answered and said, "I suppose the [one] whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have rightly judged."

[Luk 7:44 NKJV]
Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped [them] with the hair of her head.

[Luk 7:45 NKJV]
"You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.

[Luk 7:46 NKJV]
"You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil.

[Luk 7:47 NKJV]
"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which [are] many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loves little."

[Luk 7:48 NKJV]
Then He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

[Luk 7:49 NKJV]
And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

[Luk 7:50 NKJV]
Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

How old are you ?

And if you have been chosen as elder then I would have most respect.
I've already addressed you in sharing faith.

Words You and your, is being used by yourself to think of yourself more highly

Whilst faith can save people your faith can destroy people.

So where talking about scripture spoke to a person, is it a must anyone can claim that for themselves ?

Well is it a must a person can use that scripture to say it was there faith alone?

Or could it be a message to seek God.

Hey sir the list of possibilities are numerous.

But I've told you I can't share my faith with you at the moment

Point 1 I'm here now at this moment in time to end hateful biases and hateful conduct.

Let's address this sir and if we can let's put this to bed.

1 do you agree in Adam we died ?

2 would you agree glorifying freedom in a state of spiritual severance is absurd ?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And you change the efficacious grace of Christ in believers' lives into a big nothingburger since the "One who was born of God" (1Jn 5:18) utterly fails to keep His sheep safe, allowing them to stray and fall prey to the evil one -- even though one is His main purposes for coming into this world was to destroy the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8).

God equips the born again one with all that is needed in order to not be drawn away from Him. However, there are times we are drawn away. Does that mean God did not equip us? No! Does that mean God does not love us? No!

So quit with your accusation that God "utterly fails to keep His sheep safe" nonsense. Quit blaming God for decisions you make in allowing satan to draw you away if and when you sin.

God tells us what we are to do in those instances ...

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
.

 

[cv5]

How old are you ?

I was speaking to your disrespect (actually more like outright mockery of the 2Kings 2:23 sort) toward @Pilgrimshope . He is in fact an elder by any definition.
Try and keep up.

 

[cv5]

God equips the born again one with all that is needed in order to not be drawn away from Him. However, there are times we are drawn away. Does that mean God did not equip us? No! Does that mean God does not love us? No!

Could it be that @Rufus is implying Calvinistic chosenite super-exclusivity.....again?
And again and again.

 

[Rufus]

Then I guess you and the Lord Jesus don't see eye-to-eye on this huh?
From what I see, the same could be said of literally everything else you purport to believe.

[1Ti 2:3 KJV]
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

[1Ti 2:4 KJV]
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to will, have in mind, intend
   1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
   2. to desire, to wish
   3. to love
      1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
   4. to take delight in, have pleasure

The phrase "all men" is qualified in the context and should, therefore, be understood in the limited sense. It refers to Gentiles only to whom God sent Paul (v. 7). Since Jews are excluded in the passage, the phrase logically cannot be understood in the distributive sense.

Moreover, if God has willed (decreed in eternity) that all men be saved, then there is a huge theological problem with this interpretation since God's purposes and plans cannot be thwarted or frustrated by mere mortals. Huge contradiction!

Thirdly, if God willed in eternity past that all men be saved w/o exception, then where in the bible is the redemptive covenant God made with all mankind w/o exception?

Fourthly, how could God have ever decreed (willed) in eternity past to save all men w/o exception when He doesn't even give all men his grace!? God gives grace to only his humble chosen remnant in this world. The God-hating world doesn't qualify for His grace since it has no love for God. But love for God is absolutely essential since true love does not delight in evil (the way the world does, cf. Jn 3:19) and such love is not proud, which is precisely what the world is (1Cor 13:4)!

Fifthly, it's impossible for the world to turn away from evil and do good apart from the grace of the Fear of the Lord being instilled into everyone's hearts. But again...the promise of this grace was made to only God's chosen people -- not the world at large. Therefore, the world has zero spiritual power to turn from its sins!

Lastly, the vast majority of translations render v. 4 as God wants, wishes, desires or longs for which speaks to God's Dispositional Will. Evidently, all those different teams of language scholars involved with those various translations recognized the multitude of theological problems that would ensue with the term "wills" to be saved or "will have" to be saved.

Meanwhile...there are no biblical or theological problems of any kind when the above passage is interpreted in its context. Meanwhile, FWT has insurmountable theological problems to overcome with your inane, sloppy, careless and irresponsible interpretation.

 

[Jordon]

You are welcome! After the fall, Scripture says Adam's children were born after the image and likeness of him, whereas Adam had been made in the image of God. However, even being made in the image of God, Adam was of the natural world and was as much in need of being born again of the Spirit to attain to life ever after as we are. He relinquished his ability to do so by eating of the tree that promised death instead of life, and of course God knew that would be his choice, since Jesus was already purposed. Cherubs are angels, and the verses about the angel in Eden are sometimes taken to be speaking of Satan, and relating his pride- which was the reason for his downfall (same as man)- to that of the King of Tyre and his downfall, as prophesied by Ezekiel. Ezekiel describes the king as becoming so full of self-importance from his success and beauty that he became like a god. This pride caused his ultimate ruin, with some interpretations seeing it as a symbol of human arrogance and a parallel to Satan's fall. Angels were not men and men will not be angels.

Good answer
So now to my next question do you think that nature was a result of adams nature hardening even more in the king of tyre..

Then to my next question do you think God was still talking to king of tyre at this stage.

 

[Jordon]

I was speaking to your disrespect (actually more like outright mockery of the 2Kings 2:23 sort) toward @Pilgrimshope . He is in fact an elder by any definition.
Try and keep up.

oh so now your telling me pilgrims has been chosen as an elder.

He started the whole agenda with me.

It not my fault he can't accept my faith.

Just like you

 

[Jordon]

I was speaking to your disrespect (actually more like outright mockery of the 2Kings 2:23 sort) toward @Pilgrimshope . He is in fact an elder by any definition.
Try and keep up.

and as always you never answered the question ..you only found another reason to mock.

You don't really care for pilgrims, your only fooling yourself.

 

[cv5]

The phrase "all men" is qualified in the context and should, therefore, be understood in the limited sense. It refers to Gentiles only to whom God sent Paul (v. 7). Since Jews are excluded in the passage, the phrase logically cannot be understood in the distributive sense.

Moreover, if God has willed (decreed in eternity) that all men be saved, then there is a huge theological problem with this interpretation since God's purposes and plans cannot be thwarted or frustrated by mere mortals. Huge contradiction!

Thirdly, if God willed in eternity past that all men be saved w/o exception, then where in the bible is the redemptive covenant God made with all mankind w/o exception?

Fourthly, how could God have ever decreed (willed) in eternity past to save all men w/o exception when He doesn't even give all men his grace!? God gives grace to only his humble chosen remnant in this world. The God-hating world doesn't qualify for His grace since it has no love for God. But love for God is absolutely essential since true love does not delight in evil (the way the world does, cf. Jn 3:19) and such love is not proud, which is precisely what the world is (1Cor 13:4)!

Fifthly, it's impossible for the world to turn away from evil and do good apart from the grace of the Fear of the Lord being instilled into everyone's hearts. But again...the promise of this grace was made to only God's chosen people -- not the world at large. Therefore, the world has zero spiritual power to turn from its sins!

Lastly, the vast majority of translations render v. 4 as God wants, wishes, desires or longs for which speaks to God's Dispositional Will. Evidently, all those different teams of language scholars involved with those various translations recognized the multitude of theological problems that would ensue with the term "wills" to be saved or "will have" to be saved.

Meanwhile...there are no biblical or theological problems of any kind when the above passage is interpreted in its context. Meanwhile, FWT has insurmountable theological problems to overcome with your inane, sloppy, careless and irresponsible interpretation.

Get a grip. Paul was a Jew and he was saved. And his ministry saved TONS of Jews. Paul FIRST of all visited synagogues wherever he travelled. Because of course.....

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

[Jordon]

I was speaking to your disrespect (actually more like outright mockery of the 2Kings 2:23 sort) toward @Pilgrimshope . He is in fact an elder by any definition.
Try and keep up.

ah I see what your doing.

Your trying to appeal to God's children to carry on in your hate campaign

Go and tell satan to get lost