The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Hitch]

Yes but this isn't what is being discussed. You deny there is a glorified body at the resurrection which is the resurrection after the 7th trump which excludes the 2W. We can discuss that later or in another thread but I want to focus on the one issue where you are clearly incorrect.

Ok Quote me denying a glorified body at the resurrection.

 

[cv5]

I’ll read chapters 4 and 5 what am I looking for ? The 24 Elders = The entire Body of Christ = Pretribulationalism and all it’s chronologies of events. The smoking gun ?

You said it my friend. Bingo.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So what? What does it matter that Jesus told MM that He will ascend "on fristfruit"?

Coz He ASCENDED the VERY DAY of His RESURRECTION (on "FIRSTFRUIT" i.e. THAT DAY)... and then came back down later that same day (to the earth ), late in the day

(yet, you are saying He ONLY EVER "comes to the earth" TWICE: His "FIRST advent" and His "SECOND advent" according to men's labels)

Can you show me any post of mine where I said "only ever"? Of course you can't. So why are you again making up stuff?

By two advents, most sensible and rational people easily understand that refers to Jesus first coming to earth as a baby, to become the Suffering Servant, and then He comes back as King of kings and Lord of lords. This isn't "men's labels" at all. You seem to love to make up stuff.

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Does the Bible refer to that as a "coming" of Jesus? No. But he came.

So, when speaking of the Advents of Jesus, we are speaking of the PROPHESIED coming to earth of Jesus.

So, how many times does PROPHECY mention Jesus coming to earth?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

you just admitted that the saints left behind are overcome by the beast during the gt.

And no, blood washed saints are not Judged at the gwtj.

We are judged in this life, not the next.

There’re only the saints - and the ain’ts. You should’ve seen that in all seven letters in Rev. 2-3, the bad churches as organizations or institutions are criticized, but at the end of every letter He addresses the individual SAINTS - “he who has an ear, let him hear!”

Also, in 2 Thess 2:2-3, it says that as soon as the Lawless One is revealed, most will “fall away”, that sounds kind of like the opposite of being “lifted up”, no?

 

[FreeGrace2]

^ Well, let me just say (for starters) that the word "resurrection" (which means "to stand again") should not be conflated with the word "glorification"...

Only when referring to what 1 Thess 4 is about, and that is only about believers; saved people.

IOW, when Acts 24:15 states that "there shall be resurrection... of the just and of the unjust"... it is NOT saying "glorification"

Let's be clear here. When speaking of the resurrection of the saved, it IS about glorification. But never referring to the unsaved.

[for the readers (again): 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word that means 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER / RANK" (which means there is an ORDER / RANK to it, and that there doesn't yet remain ONLY ONE, at ONE POINT IN TIME)... this requires us to seek out "understanding" of just what the passage is conveying...]

WOW. Where to start?

First, the word "each" does NOT MEAN "of more than two". That's just a totally made up piece of nonsense.

Since you rarely if ever quote entire verses, let's do that now:

"But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

There are only 2 categories in this verse; certainly NOT "more than 2" as you presume.

The first is Jesus Christ. And his resurrection is called firstfruits because He IS the FIRST to receive a glorified body.
The second is "those who belong to Him". This clearly refers to every believer in history. Everyone who is saved belongs to Him.

So, "each in turn" refers to Jesus Christ and His resurrection, and "those who belong to Him" and their resurrection.

We know there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, because this verse tells us clearly that "those who belong to Him" will occur "WHEN HE COMES".

Now, who is going to screw this up and misunderstand it?

So, WHEN Jesus comes back, ALL believers will receive their glorified bodies.

Are the "2W' shown "to stand again" (after having DIED)?? Yes! (At the "6th Trmpet [events] / 2nd Woe" at a time-slot completely DISTINCT!!)

So you think the 2W will receive glorified bodies EVEN THOUGH I have shown from Scripture (1 Cor 15:23) that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".

Will Jesus be coming when the 2W are raised from the dead? No, of course not.

The Bible tells us WHEN this FIRST resurrection occurs, which is "when He comes". Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of trib martyrs the first resurrrection.

So this is irrefutable. All believers will be resurrected to receive their glorified bodies, "when He comes". The 2W will be raised to life, just like Lazarus and the widow's son in the gospels, but since that WASN'T WHEN Jesus came, they DID NOT receive glorified bodies.

 

[Beckie]

Ever notice good books are not written With huge fonts (small fonts) of different colours underlines [ brackets] all over the [place] makes reading for some way more difficult

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How many scholars have this view? I've never read of any.

Well, in past posts I put Gaebelein's Commentary on this passage... and I'm certain he's NOT THE ONLY ONE!!

OK, got it. You cite ONLY 1, yet claim you are "certain" he isn't the only one. Just much presumption.

 

[cv5]

Well, He never actually left the earth after His crucifixion, having spent 3 days and night in the center of the earth in Hades, preaching to the spirits in prison. He finally did leave in Acts 1. So, He was actually ON earth from His birth to Acts 1.


Not everything in the Bible includes a detailed description or explanation. I don't sweat it either.

For example, the real translation of Gen 1:2 is: BUT, the earth BECAME an UNINHABITED WASTELAND...

instead of: and the earth was formless and empty...

God simply didn't provide any details or explanation of why or how the earth became an uninhabited wasteland.


I don't sweat details that aren't all that important.

You don't understand that He ascended on the very day of the Feast of First Fruits? As the fulfillment of that prophetic "moed"? No Bible scholar worth his salt would make such an omission as that.....

 

[pottersclay]

Popular rapture schemes are silly, unscriptural and unnecessary.
They are based on two wormy pillars. The first is they are nothing more than pandering to men desperate to have even the slightest chance to cheat death. The second and far more destructive is the out right dismissal of Christ's Lordship in history, some carry this nonsense to the point of setting the 'kingdom in abeyance' , Jesus is King today and there is nothing in heaven or earth that can add to His royalty, power or authority.

Interesting....hmmm have you ever studied the feast and offerings?

 

[pottersclay]

Hitch said:
What is a non born again believer ?

Every believer is born again. 1 John 5:1

Every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Gal 3:2,5

Being "filled with the Spirit" is a command to obey. Being indwelt and being filled are 2 different things.

How so .....and not every believer is filled according to scripture. And the Holy Spirit cannot be commanded to dwell with in.

 

[cv5]

There’re only the saints - and the ain’ts. You should’ve seen that in all seven letters in Rev. 2-3, the bad churches as organizations or institutions are criticized, but at the end of every letter He addresses the individual SAINTS - “he who has an ear, let him hear!”

Also, in 2 Thess 2:2-3, it says that as soon as the Lawless One is revealed, most will “fall away”, that sounds kind of like the opposite of being “lifted up”, no?

Bear in mind of the 7 letters to 7 Churches were real historical Churches of that era. Sardis and Laodocea had ridiculously profound "falling away" problems. And that was 2000 years ago.

Framed in that reality this "end time falling away" business holds no water. In fact the apostasy created by Constantine was probably the greatest of all time. Forced conversions of unbelievers were the norm not the exception.

 

[riverhooks]

You said it my friend. Bingo.

I noticed that they have their own song and that there are twenty four of them . They appear to be ELDERS which sit in a place of privilege casting their golden crowns before the God and singing their own unique song. Whereas in the next chapter I see a great multitude which also are singing their own unique song. So ? I think the great multitude would be the redeemed not the 24 elders.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok Quote me denying a glorified body at the resurrection.

I have never spoken to you until this post. I was talking to someone else, obviously because I quoted who I was speaking to.

 

[Hitch]

Interesting....hmmm have you ever studied the feast and offerings?

Yeah, so have most failed rapture prognosticators. Levitt, Camping and the whole HeeHaw gang.

 

[ewq1938]

Ever notice good books are not written With huge fonts (small fonts) of different colours underlines [ brackets] all over the [place] makes reading for some way more difficult

Confusion is /always/ confusing and& might as well type it (ON a KEYboard)<------- out in a confusing (way]-- to double down [TWO 2x}} on confusion (see post 191[!]...

 

[Hitch]

I have never spoken to you until this post. I was talking to someone else, obviously because I quoted who I was speaking to.

Fair enough. I couldnt tell what was a quote and what is a response in your posts, thats why I asked . Thanx

 

[cv5]

I noticed that they have their own song and that there are twenty four of them . They appear to be ELDERS which sit in a place of privilege casting their golden crowns before the God and singing their own unique song. Whereas in the next chapter I see a great multitude which also are singing their own unique song. So ? I think the great multitude would be the redeemed not the 24 elders.

This is the first time you have read those two chapters? Their identities are both self-described, and observed and are absolutely unique. They utter the exact same statement as the Apostle John does in Revelation 1:6. Are you still confused?

 

[Hitch]

How so .....and not every believer is filled according to scripture. And the Holy Spirit cannot be commanded to dwell with in.

Can a man believe without being drawn ?

 

[cv5]

Popular rapture schemes are silly, unscriptural and unnecessary.
They are based on two wormy pillars. The first is they are nothing more than pandering to men desperate to have even the slightest chance to cheat death. The second and far more destructive is the out right dismissal of Christ's Lordship in history, some carry this nonsense to the point of setting the 'kingdom in abeyance' , Jesus is King today and there is nothing in heaven or earth that can add to His royalty, power or authority.

Quite a load of bafflegab you've got going on there buddy. Hardly put a dent in the pretrib rapture though. Nothing and nobody I've come across has yet. Inevitably they prove they do not understand the Bible.

 

[riverhooks]

This is the first time you have read those two chapters? Their identities are both self-described, and observed and are absolutely unique. They utter the exact same statement as the Apostle John does in Revelation 1:6. Are you still confused?

I am confused that you do not acknowledge and use the Word of God to correct you. You seem to be rude . I am not confused. However hard it may be . So you are saying that the 24 elders are part of the company in the next chapter. Are they singing a different song at a different time or is it a chorus. Yeah , going down these rabbit trails is a bit confusing when the rather than trying to fit the timing of the rapture from the Book of Revelation you could use plain statements of scripture . Such as The Last Day when the dead in Christ rise, which is the the same day the living believers are translated . Namely 1 Thessalonians 4,16 . God is not the author of confusion . Seems pretty clear , to me at least.