The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[riverhooks]

Your failure to read my earlier posts is your fault not mine. What happened your Bible? You just can't seem to find it to look at chapters 4 and 5? It's literally a two-minute read at best.

And yes the 24 Elders are certainly the Church, raptured before the chapter 6 tribulation begins. Exactly as Christ has promised us.

I’ll read chapters 4 and 5 what am I looking for ? The 24 Elders = The entire Body of Christ = Pretribulationalism and all it’s chronologies of events. The smoking gun ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 comings in mat 24

2 comings total. First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and the Suffering Servant.
Second Advent: Jesus comes back to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Matt 24 the Second Advent.

The one after the trib has no gathering from earth.

Really? 2 Thess 2:1 says otherwise.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

We know this is a reference to the Second Advent (post trib) because Paul begins the 2nd epistle about the Second Advent:

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The other coming has noah gathered before the trib/ judgement[/QUOTE]
You mean Noah is gathered before the Trib occurs? Where do you get your ideas?

 

[pottersclay]

Well that sums up most rapture schemes.

You don't believe the rapture is possible?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think he means those that the seed sprouts but is overtaken by this world.

Osas would not have an answer, because they would say " he never became a "plant""

Please don't think you know enough to speak for others of a different viewpoint.

All who have believed will NOT be condemned. So says the Bible.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

There will be many believers who have been and will be "overtaken by this world". Doesn't change their destiny because their destiny isn't determined by their lifestyles.

The words "have not believed" means "NEVER believed".

 

[FreeGrace2]

riverhooks said:
I’ll go with the Bible . We are talking about what the Bible says. The Church is on the earth at the Second Coming of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 .

Still waiting for any postribber to RIGHTLY define for us the identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation. For some reason no one wants to touch that with a 10 foot pole. Understandably.

I've already asked you why this would be relevant to the resurrection/rapture, and you have failed to answer.

"for some reason" YOU do NOT want "to touch that with a 10 foot pole". Why not?

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are judged in this life, not the next.

Clearly, you do not understand the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ then.

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Count on it; you ARE going to be judged.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hitch said:
What is a non born again believer ?

One is is not filled with the Holy Spirit ☺️

Every believer is born again. 1 John 5:1

Every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Gal 3:2,5

Being "filled with the Spirit" is a command to obey. Being indwelt and being filled are 2 different things.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 comings total. First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and the Suffering Servant.

And yet, as we see:

--Micah 5:2 -

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."


--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."



... that there are TWO mentions of "COME" regarding Him (BOTH "fitting" into what WE label His "FIRST advent"), but which occur some 30 years apart. It would be somewhat silly for readers to conflate these words "come" in these two texts, to be referring to "the same moment"... which is what ppl tend to do with the texts of:
-- 2Th2:1 "the coming [/presence/parousai] of OUR Lord Jesus Christ and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [which is "IN THE AIR" and involves NO ONE ELSE]
--and 2Th2:8a "the MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" [which is at His "RETURN" to the earth, when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him, and he takes out/smashes "the man of sin"/AC]

Second Advent: Jesus comes back to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.

And as we all know, these labels of "FIRST advent" and "SECOND advent" are what WE MEN place as labels (not found in the text of Scripture itself) to aid in our discussions about the general Subject, but which should not usurp Scripture itself (which never uses these terms to speak of them)

 

[FreeGrace2]

No identity could be LESS mysterious than that of the 24 Elders. The list of their attributes is specific and lengthy......and quite unequivocal as to their identity.

Not one post-tribber has dared to enter into that discussion. They deny or ignore it all together just as you have done.

Why do you insist on lying about posttribbers. I've been asking you HOW they relate to resurrection.

All you do is waffle. Either explain HOW they relate, or just explain WHO they are.

Or, maybe you are asking because YOU don't know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And yes the 24 Elders are certainly the Church, raptured before the chapter 6 tribulation begins. Exactly as Christ has promised us.

Interesting opinion, but still ONLY an opinion.

Since there are NO verses describing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, all you can do is assume/presume/guess that He will.

If you are so "certain" the 24 elders are "the Church", then what is your evidence that convinces you of this? Or was it just the many many commentaries that you've read?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I’ll read chapters 4 and 5 what am I looking for ? The 24 Elders = The entire Body of Christ = Pretribulationalism and all it’s chronologies of events. The smoking gun ?

A couple things (for starters), besides what I'd already [recently] put:

--Rev5:4 "WAS FOUND" shows that a SEARCHING JUDGMENT has already taken place;

--their wearing "CROWNS [stephanous]" (which Paul said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" [2Tim4:8] and not to him ONLY ( https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/4-8.htm )--note: NOT the day of his DEATH], also shows that "a judgment/determination" [like, the "BEMA" for REWARDS] has already taken place






[bearing in mind that 4:1+ [per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1(onward)] takes place within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (i.e. the 7 years)... not what unfolds over some 2000 years]

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
2 comings total. First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and the Suffering Servant.

And yet, as we see:

--Micah 5:2 -

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

2nd Advent

--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

1st Advent

... that there are TWO mentions of "COME" regarding Him (BOTH "fitting" into what WE label His "FIRST advent")

Well, there's your error. Micah 5:2 cannot be about the 1st Advent. Did Jesus "rule the Jews" during His time on earth? No.

And as we all know, these labels of "FIRST advent" and "SECOND advent" are what WE MEN place as labels (not found in the text of Scripture itself) to aid in our discussions about the general Subject, but which should not usurp Scripture itself (which never uses these terms to speak of them)

Actually, anyone with the moxy to count to 2 can see how many Advents there are.

Jesus comes to earth twice: first as a baby to become the "Suffering Servant" and second, as King of kings and Lord of lords, ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

This is not difficult.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: yet out of thee [Bethlehem Ephratah] SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me

2nd Advent

You think Jesus will do that part ^ at His "Second Advent"?? (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth Rev19??)




Most ppl believe "out of thee [Bethlehem Ephratah] SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me ..." refers to His BIRTH (in Bethlehem)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus comes to earth twice: first as a baby to become the "Suffering Servant" and second, as King of kings and Lord of lords, ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

This is not difficult.

I believe Jesus "came to the earth" after His FIRST ascension (Jn20:17) ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day; Lev23:10-12) to spend some "40 DAYS" with His [many] disciples (the only ones to have seen him during those days--not before UNbelievers) before doing His SECOND episode of going up to Heaven [/ascension], this time VISIBLY (Acts 1)...

...but these "40 DAYS" (in which He came back to the earth, to spend) don't "fit" into EITHER the category of His "birth / Suffering Servant" OR His "ruling [/shepherding / feeding--Rev7:17 / Isa49:10--MK verse] the nations with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [/righteousness and strength--Heb1:8, etc]"... but your viewpoint has no explanation regarding that, and, in fact, completely disregards it.

Which immediately makes it suspect, in my mind.

 

[riverhooks]

My spin are the 24 elders are exactly that elders . They have their own song. And do not represent the entire Body of Christ . I’m not dogmatic about it because it doesn’t have anything to do with The Lord descending from Heaven with a shout, the dead in Christ being raised from the dead in glorified bodies the living believers caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air being changed in an instant and continuing with The Lord on His Journey pouring flaming fire on those that know not God and obey not the Lord Jesus Christ. I did read Rev 4, 5, 6 what I saw after the vision of the 24 elders was a great multitude singing a different song. To me they probably are the church. Eh. The timing of the rapture ? The second coming of Christ. Let God be God. No early outs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You think Jesus will do that part ^ at His "Second Advent"?? (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth Rev19??)

What does "do that part" mean or refer to? I can't answer until I understand your question.

Most ppl believe "out of thee [Bethlehem Ephratah] SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me ..." refers to His BIRTH (in Bethlehem)

That would be a reference to His birth. What verse are you quoting from?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe Jesus "came to the earth" after His FIRST ascension (Jn20:17) ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day; Lev23:10-12) to spend some "40 DAYS" with His [many] disciples (the only ones to have seen him during those days--not before UNbelievers) before doing His SECOND episode of going up to Heaven [/ascension], this time VISIBLY (Acts 1)...

Well, He never actually left the earth after His crucifixion, having spent 3 days and night in the center of the earth in Hades, preaching to the spirits in prison. He finally did leave in Acts 1. So, He was actually ON earth from His birth to Acts 1.

...but these "40 DAYS" (in which He came back to the earth, to spend) don't "fit" into EITHER the category of His "birth / Suffering Servant" OR His "ruling [/shepherding / feeding--Rev7:17 / Isa49:10--MK verse] the nations with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [/righteousness and strength--Heb1:8, etc]"... but your viewpoint has no explanation regarding that, and, in fact, completely disregards it.

Not everything in the Bible includes a detailed description or explanation. I don't sweat it either.

For example, the real translation of Gen 1:2 is: BUT, the earth BECAME an UNINHABITED WASTELAND...

instead of: and the earth was formless and empty...

God simply didn't provide any details or explanation of why or how the earth became an uninhabited wasteland.

Which immediately makes it suspect, in my mind.

I don't sweat details that aren't all that important.

 

[riverhooks]

Well, He never actually left the earth after His crucifixion, having spent 3 days and night in the center of the earth in Hades, preaching to the spirits in prison. He finally did leave in Acts 1. So, He was actually ON earth from His birth to Acts 1.


Not everything in the Bible includes a detailed description or explanation. I don't sweat it either.

For example, the real translation of Gen 1:2 is: BUT, the earth BECAME an UNINHABITED WASTELAND...

instead of: and the earth was formless and empty...

God simply didn't provide any details or explanation of why or how the earth became an uninhabited wasteland.


I don't sweat details that aren't all that important.

Exactly

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, He never actually left the earth after His crucifixion, having spent 3 days and night in the center of the earth in Hades, preaching to the spirits in prison. He finally did leave in Acts 1. So, He was actually ON earth from His birth to Acts 1.

I'm not referring to His "death and burial" (and days bodily in the grave).

I'm referring to His "I ASCEND [active]" He said to MM after His RESURRECTION (Jn20:17), at which point He then ASCENDED (THAT VERY DAY, ON FIRSTFRUIT, Lev23:10-12)... and then came back DOWN to the earth and was then in the presence of His disciples (LATE that SAME EVENING), when the doors were shut/locked (Jn20:19) yet ye entered the room to be in their midst (saying "Touch Me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as ye see Me having "- Luke 24:39)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ P.S. (regarding one of @FreeGrace2 's points) I believe 1 Peter 3:19-20, where it says, "19 in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. [...],"

... that it refers to Jesus having gone IN SPIRIT ["in WHOM"--that is, via the HOLY SPIRIT] back in Noah's day to PREACH THEN, to the spirits [of the disobedient persons specifically IN NOAH'S DAY!!] who are NOW in prison [i.e. they perished in the flood] (not that He did this during the 3 days His BODY was in the grave... and when His spirit [His human spirit] went to be IMMEDIATELY with the Father, upon His DEATH... that part of Him did not "DIE"... "into Thy hands I commit / commend MY SPIRIT and having said thus He gave up the ghost [i.e. DIED physically, and His spirit was separated from His body and went to the Father]")