What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
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Burning people alive is what God detests.
I find it odd that people reject death as punishment.
Not that you have said that
God promised death as the end result for sin numerous times throughout the Bible, from beginning to end.
Juxtaposed against the few verses people bring to the table to contest the idea, which are far outweighed.
Two of which come from a book steeped in apocalyptic symbolism.
People who do not even distinguish between hell and the Lake of Fire.
People who claim Jesus did not teach in parables as the Bible states He did.
People who think man was created immortal despite Scripture's plain teaching to the contrary.
People who refuse to accept that there are multiple places where forever does not mean without end.
They will try to confuse the issue by bringing God's Self-existent eternality into the mix.
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that man or the soul of man is immortal aside from the life that is found through faith in the shed blood of Jesus upon the cross, where Christ paid the price for sin, which is death. In fact, Scripture explicitly says that man is mortal and puts on immortality through Christ. All else perish. Scripture also explicitly says that only God is immortal, and that He can destroy both body and soul. Over and over and over again we are told that the soul that sins shall die. The dead know nothing. Jesus said we would never die, so the soul that dies is the unbelieving soul, because anyone not found in Jesus Christ at the end of this age passes into the second death. These things are all explicitly stated, clearly said, and yet people deny them.
It is written in holy scripture that there is an "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:41,46) that is characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth" as the person is cast into "the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:41-42, 13:49-50)
We are not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but we are rather to fear Him who, after He has killed, has the power to cast you into hell (Luke 12:4-5).
Yes punishment will last forever literally. The punishment is death, not torture.
That is the initial reaction. It does not last forever because fire will consume them into nothing. Not to mention "wailing and gnashing of teeth" also happens in darkness which has nothing to do with fire so this is a common reaction to something a person fears an not only related to fire:
Mat_8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat_22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Which causes this:
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .
Death is obviously not the end of existence. Therefore the dead spirit will continue to be dead. Death is separation from God. Jude says of false disciples that they are twice dead (Jude 1:12). Obviously they are not annihilated. There is zero justification to equate death with the end of existence.
The second death is the end of existence.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Burning people alive is what God detests.
I find it odd that people reject death as punishment.
Not that you have said that
God promised death as the end result for sin numerous times throughout the Bible, from beginning to end.
Juxtaposed against the few verses people bring to the table to contest the idea, which are far outweighed.
Two of which come from a book steeped in apocalyptic symbolism.
People who do not even distinguish between hell and the Lake of Fire.
People who claim Jesus did not teach in parables as the Bible states He did.
People who think man was created immortal despite Scripture's plain teaching to the contrary.
People who refuse to accept that there are multiple places where forever does not mean without end.
They will try to confuse the issue by bringing God's Self-existent eternality into the mix.
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that man or the soul of man is immortal aside from the life that is found through faith in the shed blood of Jesus upon the cross, where Christ paid the price for sin, which is death. In fact, Scripture explicitly says that man is mortal and puts on immortality through Christ. All else perish. Scripture also explicitly says that only God is immortal, and that He can destroy both body and soul. Over and over and over again we are told that the soul that sins shall die. The dead know nothing. Jesus said we would never die, so the soul that dies is the unbelieving soul, because anyone not found in Jesus Christ at the end of this age passes into the second death. These things are all explicitly stated, clearly said, and yet people deny them.
Death is punishment compared to Paradise of course but there is no torture, correct? That means whatever state a dead, unrepentant person is in will be wiped away in an instant as they are anihilated. That person will not know what they are missing.
I really don't know. Both sides make good points.
I do feel that anihilationism is a positive thing for the sinner and if I was told 'God is real, the Gospel is true and you will cease to exist after you are judged.' I would be ok with that. That is basically the end result of atheism anyway. The only change is the 'fictional deity' that exists between the 1st and 2nd death.
I like your font
. It's very pleasing.What I don't understand (from some posters) is... their being perfectly okay with Jesus' "parable" stating that "hell/hades" for the rich man is described by him as "I am suffering IN THIS FLAME"
(why, from their perspective, do they think Jesus would use such an "evil" illustration for His parable, I wonder... since they do believe that is "evil")?
22 And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And in Hades [/hell], having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And having cried out, he said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.’
[...]
27 And he said, ‘Then I implore you, father, that you would send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he might warn them, that they also might not come to this place of torment.’
[and "hell / hades"--not to mention, "death"--is PRIOR TO "the lake of fire"]
I wonder why eternal tormenters never quote verses about being destroyed, perishing, or the second death to supplement their doctrine.
^ Well, I did cover some of that in my Post #203 ("perish" / "destroy")... and in another post, I forget where.
ewq, consider what this word "H4127" means in Psalm 75:3... see under "Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon" at BlueLetterBible:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h4127/kjv/wlc/0-1/
...where it says... "Figuratively to melt with fear and alarm, Ex. 15:15; Josh. 2:9, 24; Ps. 75:4 [I think it means 75:3, where this word is used]"
ewq, consider what this word "H4127" means in Psalm 75:3... see under "Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon" at BlueLetterBible:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h4127/kjv/wlc/0-1/
...where it says... "Figuratively to melt with fear and alarm, Ex. 15:15; Josh. 2:9, 24; Ps. 75:4 [I think it means 75:3, where this word is used]"
Thank you... though I do not know what you mean to say "fictional deity" that exists between the first and second death. There is One True God and multiple false gods which are not Deity. These false gods do not have to be entities, for they can be described as such things as idols, including the pride of man which keeps him from submitting to God. Anyway, imagine being told, "I have some great news for you! Jesus died for your sins, but if you do not accept this to be true and refuse to believe it, you will be burned alive in conscious torment forever after." Not really good news, is it? All sin and death is done away with at the end of this age following judgment. There is to be no more suffering or sorrow. All things are made new. The former has passed away, including those who did not submit to God's sovereignty.Death is punishment compared to Paradise of course but there is no torture, correct? That means whatever state a dead, unrepentant person is in will be wiped away in an instant as they are anihilated. That person will not know what they are missing.
I really don't know. Both sides make good points.
I do feel that anihilationism is a positive thing for the sinner and if I was told 'God is real, the Gospel is true and you will cease to exist after you are judged.' I would be ok with that. That is basically the end result of atheism anyway. The only change is the 'fictional deity' that exists between the 1st and 2nd death.
I like your font
The idea of hell/LoF no doubt scares people, and it is true too that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom
So as much as I dislike and disbelieve and find the idea of eternal conscious torture and torment to be un-Biblical and abhorrent, I can still see that the doctrine itself, even if erroneous and detestable, may serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things, for we know fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose
Apollumi
"Forever"
Consider also that Paul never mentioned the word hell and he told us to follow his example, assuring us he had given us the full council of God straight from Jesus. Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Also, welcome to CC!
Welcome!
Thank you... though I do not know what you mean to say "fictional deity" that exists between the first and second death. There is One True God and multiple false gods which are not Deity. These false gods do not have to be entities, for they can be described as such things as idols, including the pride of man which keeps him from submitting to God. Anyway, imagine being told, "I have some great news for you! Jesus died for your sins, but if you do not accept this to be true and refuse to believe it, you will be burned alive in conscious torment forever after." Not really good news, is it? All sin and death is done away with at the end of this age following judgment. There is to be no more suffering or sorrow. All things are made new. The former has passed away, including those who did not submit to God's sovereignty.
The idea of hell/LoF no doubt scares people, and it is true too that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom
So as much as I dislike and disbelieve and find the idea of eternal conscious torture and torment to be un-Biblical and abhorrent, I can still see that the doctrine itself, even if erroneous and detestable, may serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things, for we know fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose
Apollumi
"Forever"
Consider also that Paul never mentioned the word hell and he told us to follow his example, assuring us he had given us the full council of God straight from Jesus. Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Also, welcome to CC!
Welcome!
I know Jesus. The fictional deity is from the POV of the atheist.
I've heard all the arguments from both sides.
All I'm saying is that I don't think an atheist would be all that upset to learn that they're going to disappear when dead. It's not punishment if you're not aware of it.
Death is not punishment? Well, that flies in the face of thousands of
years of death being meted out as the severest form of punishment.
It was also what God told Adam would be the consequence of disobedience,
and is repeated numerous times from beginning to end of Scripture.
Death is a punishment because on judgment day the unsaved will know they chose wrongly. They will know they will die and be dead forever. They will know they will not spend eternity with their friends and family. They will know they will have lost out on being immortal and having eternal life, a beautiful life we can only imagine. They will know they will not receive the love of God and life in the new Earth and Jerusalem. They will mourne terribly at sight of Christ at the second coming. None of this is a punishment in your view?