What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Diakonos]

Death is the eternal punishMENT--it does not say punishING

Nope,I disagree with you and your interpretation. Its not bibical but someone else's absurdity!

Please show me the absurdity in what I have shared? I used SCRIPTURE to prove my point. Where is Scriptures to prove yours?

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”” (Matthew 25:41, 46)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”” (Matthew 25:41, 46)

Right.



And for the devil, we know this is at the GWTj point in time that he is "cast into the LOF"... which Rev20:10 tells us clearly:

"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages."



That's verse 10.



Verse 15 also tells of others besides these three.

 

[Diakonos]

Right.



And for the devil, we know this is at the GWTj point in time that he is "cast into the LOF"... which Rev20:10 tells us clearly:

"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages."



That's verse 10.



Verse 15 also tells of others besides these three.

Amen.

Also, notice that the beast and the false prophet are still there since they were thrown in before the Millenium (Rev 19); They have been in the LOF for 1000 years at that point. They are not annihilated. The burning bush (Ex 3) is a good symbol of the eternal fire:

“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked,
and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.” (Exodus 3:2)​

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Amen.

Also, notice that the beast and the false prophet are still there since they were thrown in before the Millenium (Rev 19); They have been in the LOF for 1000 years at that point. They are not annihilated.

Right!

The thing is, the "amill-teachings" (and others) have butchered the "chronology" so much (often by simply disregarding it, in places), that they can make it seem like these three are "cast into the LOF" at the same time, and that it occurs for Satan (and others) at a time other than what Rev20:11,7 describes it to be (i.e. when the thousand years are concluded);

Whereas for the beast and the false prophet, it's at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (a thousand years earlier): Rev19:19-20,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:4-5 and Isa24:21-22a (the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of this Isa passage [which are separated by TIME]).

The "amill-teachings" incorrectly equate these points in time in the chronology.

 

[Diakonos]

Right!

The thing is, the "amill-teachings" (and others) have butchered the "chronology" so much (often by simply disregarding it, in places), that they can make it seem like these three are "cast into the LOF" at the same time, and that it occurs for Satan (and others) at a time other than what Rev20:11,7 describes it to be (i.e. when the thousand years are concluded);

Whereas for the beast and the false prophet, it's at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (a thousand years earlier): Rev19:19-20,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:4-5 and Isa24:21-22a (the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of this Isa passage [which are separated by TIME]).

The "amill-teachings" incorrectly equate these points in time in the chronology.

I call amil "lazy eschatology", because if the entire Revelation can be interpreted allegorically, then you don't have to study the Old Testament. Revelation refers to the OT 518 times. You have to understand the OT to understand Revelation. It's the only consistent view. The nature of prophecy is literal fulfillment (sometimes with parabolic description). The Bible gives us no reason to think that will change.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Well said, @Diakonos (Post #485).

Agreed.

 

[Laura798]

I call amil "lazy eschatology", because if the entire Revelation can be interpreted allegorically, then you don't have to study the Old Testament. Revelation refers to the OT 518 times. You have to understand the OT to understand Revelation. It's the only consistent view. The nature of prophecy is literal fulfillment (sometimes with parabolic description). The Bible gives us no reason to think that will change.

Diakonos, if you look thru this thread you will find Annihilationists quoting 10 verses to every 1 of the Eternal Conscious Tormenters.

And you will not find ONE single person on this forum who calls Revelation, allegorical--John writes down the vision and in some cases the angel CLEARLY states what the vision means The dragon IS______________The 7 heads ARE________________The lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH. You must have not read any of our proof texts. Please show me all the LITERAL (not figurative) verses in the Old Testament that say Eternal Conscious Torment is the end of man. The bible says LITERALLY that man's end is death and destruction. Please take off the lens of the doctrine you've been taught and read the scriptures with your own two eyes--and more importantly with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The most preposterous thing of all is that 1) It attributes EVIL to God and 2) If you follow this doctrine to its logical conclusion would say that Christ himself is or will be in Eternal Conscious torment if THAT is the wages of SIN and not DEATH.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."--Romans 6:23

Death means DEATH. Perish means PERISH. Destruction means DESTRUCTION. If you attempt to change the meaning of words, then ALL of the bible can be called into question.

 

[Laura798]

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”” (Matthew 25:41, 46)

Eternal Punishment--what is the Eternal Punishment according to the Scriptures? DEATH.

 

[Laura798]

Agreed!

Great advice!

Oh my goodness--if only those of the Eternal Conscious Torment (which came from the Roman Catholics who got it from the PAGANS would do so!

 

[Laura798]

How long will this punishment be? They are going to be obliterated when?

I can't believe that people in our modern times do not know the difference between LITERAL and FIGURATIVE language-- the Punishment is ETERNAL--meaning there is no coming back from it! All will be raised at the last day and then the JUDGMENT.

If you believe in eternal conscious torment then you are saying Christ is or will ALSO in Eternal Conscious Torment--since it DENIES that Christ paid the penalty by His death on the cross!

 

[Laura798]

Death is a punishment because on judgment day the unsaved will know they chose wrongly. They will know they will die and be dead forever. They will know they will not spend eternity with their friends and family. They will know they will have lost out on being immortal and having eternal life, a beautiful life we can only imagine. They will know they will not receive the love of God and life in the new Earth and Jerusalem. They will mourne terribly at sight of Christ at the second coming. None of this is a punishment in your view?

Well said, Ewq!

 

[Laura798]

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”” (Matthew 25:41, 46)

The contrast is between life and death. What did God say the punishment would be for sin. "In the day you eat of it you shall surely DIE"

Every word in the bible is important even if, in, on, etc. It says IN the day not on the day. They received the sentence of death and so did all mankind. Christ paid the penalty of death for us by dying on the cross--his DEATH was payment in FULL.

"“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."--John 3:16

Perish: To die or be destroyed.

 

[Laura798]

Agreed!

Great advice!

Compare Scripture with Scripture
Another key principle of hermeneutics is that we should use Scripture to interpret Scripture. Known by theologians as the “analogy of faith” or “analogy of Scripture,” this principle is solidly based on the Bible’s own teachings. Since the Bible is the Word of God and God cannot lie or contradict Himself (Numbers 23:19; Hebrews 6:18), then one passage will never contradict another passage.

https://answersingenesis.org/hermeneutics/how-we-interpret-the-bible-principles-for-understanding/

Unfortunately, this is problematic since the idea if eternal conscious torment came about by putting on the Scriptures what one has been taught--eisegesis vs extracting what the author's message really is--exegesis.

The bible is filled with figurative language--it is easy to see that eternal punishment/eternal fire/ eternal destruction all mean
DEATH/DESTRUCTION since that is what Scripture says repeatedly in LITERAL language.

 

[Diakonos]

Diakonos, if you look thru this thread you will find Annihilationists quoting 10 verses to every 1 of the Eternal Conscious Tormenters.

And you will not find ONE single person on this forum who calls Revelation, allegorical--John writes down the vision and in some cases the angel CLEARLY states what the vision means The dragon IS______________The 7 heads ARE________________The lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH. You must have not read any of our proof texts. Please show me all the LITERAL (not figurative) verses in the Old Testament that say Eternal Conscious Torment is the end of man. The bible says LITERALLY that man's end is death and destruction. Please take off the lens of the doctrine you've been taught and read the scriptures with your own two eyes--and more importantly with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The most preposterous thing of all is that 1) It attributes EVIL to God and 2) If you follow this doctrine to its logical conclusion would say that Christ himself is or will be in Eternal Conscious torment if THAT is the wages of SIN and not DEATH.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."--Romans 6:23

Death means DEATH. Perish means PERISH. Destruction means DESTRUCTION. If you attempt to change the meaning of words, then ALL of the bible can be called into question.

I think you meant to send this reply to another post of mine, because I said nothing about annihilation or death or the lake of fire here. My comment was about amillennialism (the doctrine that there is no kingdom of God after the tribulation). I was disagreeing with the doctrine and agreeing with my fellow friend on how it ignores what the prophets have written.

 

[Laura798]

Diakonos, if you look thru this thread you will find Annihilationists quoting 10 verses to every 1 of the Eternal Conscious Tormenters.

And you will not find ONE single person on this forum who calls Revelation, allegorical--John writes down the vision and in some cases the angel CLEARLY states what the vision means The dragon IS______________The 7 heads ARE________________The lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH. You must have not read any of our proof texts. Please show me all the LITERAL (not figurative) verses in the Old Testament that say Eternal Conscious Torment is the end of man. The bible says LITERALLY that man's end is death and destruction. Please take off the lens of the doctrine you've been taught and read the scriptures with your own two eyes--and more importantly with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The most preposterous thing of all is that 1) It attributes EVIL to God and 2) If you follow this doctrine to its logical conclusion would say that Christ himself is or will be in Eternal Conscious torment if THAT is the wages of SIN and not DEATH.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."--Romans 6:23

Death means DEATH. Perish means PERISH. Destruction means DESTRUCTION. If you attempt to change the meaning of words, then ALL of the bible can be called into question.

I think you meant to send this reply to another post of mine, because I said nothing about annihilation or death or the lake of fire here. My comment was about amillennialism (the doctrine that there is no kingdom of God after the tribulation). I was disagreeing with the doctrine and agreeing with my fellow friend on how it ignores what the prophets have written.

Oh my apologies!

 

[Diakonos]

Eternal Punishment--what is the Eternal Punishment according to the Scriptures? DEATH.

This is the second death:

The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at the return of Jesus (Rev 19:20).
After that Christ reigns on the earth for 1000 years (Rev 20:1-7).
After 1000 years, when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, the beast and false prophet are still there, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev 20:10).
Anyone whose name is not found in the book of life at judgment will be thrown in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

 

[Diakonos]

Oh my apologies!

That being said, since you mistakenly responded to this post of mine, I would appreciate the "disagree" icon being removed, unless you honestly disagree with my position on Amillenneism.
Also, feel free to private message me if you'd like to talk about annihilation vs eternal destruction. It's a lot more efficient than replying to several separate posts.

 

[Laura798]

That being said, since you mistakenly responded to this post of mine, I would appreciate the "disagree" icon being removed, unless you honestly disagree with my position on Amillenneism.
Also, feel free to private message me if you'd like to talk about annihilation vs eternal destruction. It's a lot more efficient than replying to several separate posts.

Yes, Diakonos, I respectfully disagree with your position. I don't like to label my beliefs, but if I had to, I would be in the Amillennialist camp. The 1000 year reign is only in Revelation--it is found nowhere else in scripture. it is a symbol for Christ's present reign --Satan is bound at the very point of Christ's death on the cross--when Christ defeated death and sin for all those who would believe in him.

This is what will literally happen at the end of the age 1) Jesus comes a second time 2) there is the judgment 3) Christ hands the reign of the kingdom over to God 4) the current heaven and earth are destroyed 5) A new heaven and earth are created where God will then dwell with all believers.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Laura798]

This is the second death:

The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at the return of Jesus (Rev 19:20).
After that Christ reigns on the earth for 1000 years (Rev 20:1-7).
After 1000 years, when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, the beast and false prophet are still there, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev 20:10).
Anyone whose name is not found in the book of life at judgment will be thrown in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

'are' was added by the translators of the King James Bible--it is not in the original text. Revelations tell us that the lake of fire IS the second death.

 

[ewq1938]

'are' was added by the translators of the King James Bible--it is not in the original text.

That's completely irrelevant. It's clearly saying they were there before satan was which proves Premill to be true. They were cast into lake at the Rev 19 second coming but satan was not cast into the lake until AFTER the thousand years. That proves they were in the lake LONG before satan will be cast into there.