What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Laura798]

That's completely irrelevant. It's clearly saying they were there before satan was which proves Premill to be true. They were cast into lake at the Rev 19 second coming but satan was not cast into the lake until AFTER the thousand years. That proves they were in the lake LONG before satan will be cast into there.

No actually it isn't. Other translations say "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. -- Revelation 20:10

If you do a search for 1000 years throughout scripture you will see it signfies a long period of time and not a literal 1000 years.

Psalm 90:4
Verse Concepts
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it passes by,
Or as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
Verse Concepts
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Ecclesiastes 6:6
Verse Concepts
Even if the other man lives a thousand years twice and does not enjoy good things—do not all go to one place?”

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/1000-Years-And-More

 

[Laura798]

That's completely irrelevant. It's clearly saying they were there before satan was which proves Premill to be true. They were cast into lake at the Rev 19 second coming but satan was not cast into the lake until AFTER the thousand years. That proves they were in the lake LONG before satan will be cast into there.

The Jews believed the Messiah would be an earthly king, but Christ himself said His kingdom was not of this world.

"Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is not of this world”--John 18:36

Please see post#498 Christ is reigning now. Satan was bound when Jesus died on the cross. All of Revelation signifies something that will be or has been. It is the story of redemption, not just the story of the end times.

 

[Diakonos]

I respectfully disagree with your position. I don't like to label my beliefs, but if I had to, I would be in the Amillennialist camp.

Thank you for keeping it respectful.
I have had this conversation too many times. I already understand why you have that position...its a difference in hermeneutics, which is better discussed one-on-one. If you'd like to message me and continue, I am all ears.

'are' was added by the translators of the King James Bible--it is not in the original text. Revelations tell us that the lake of fire IS the second death.

I'm not using KJV here, so it's irrelevant. The point I made was that these 2 people are thrown into the LOF before the millennium. And they are still there 1000 years later when Satan is thrown in with them...meaning they weren't annihilated. But since you don't believe in the millenium, that makes sense why you don't connect those dots.
Again, I understand why we differ on eschatology... it's because we have a different hermeneutical approach, which is an entirely different subject. If you'd like to explain why 1000 years means something other than what it says, feel free to message me directly.

 

[Runningman]

Thank you for keeping it respectful.
I have had this conversation too many times. I already understand why you have that position...its a difference in hermeneutics, which is better discussed one-on-one. If you'd like to message me and continue, I am all ears.

I'm not using KJV here, so it's irrelevant. The point I made was that these 2 people are thrown into the LOF before the millennium. And they are still there 1000 years later when Satan is thrown in with them...meaning they weren't annihilated. But since you don't believe in the millenium, that makes sense why you don't connect those dots.
Again, I understand why we differ on eschatology... it's because we have a different hermeneutical approach, which is an entirely different subject. If you'd like to explain why 1000 years means something other than what it says, feel free to message me directly.

Revelation 20:10 says that only the devil will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

Rev. 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But actually the devil ends up destroyed, too.

Hebrews 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So once again, the Bible does not teach any sort of eternal torment.

 

[Yahshua]

Hey Diakonos,

I'm a literalist when it comes to 1000-year reign, but I also believe in annihilation at the judgment.

The point I made was that these 2 people are thrown into the LOF before the millennium. And they are still there 1000 years later when Satan is thrown in with them...meaning they weren't annihilated.

...But are they "people" (men) or something else?

This is why earlier in this thread I argued the difference between "spirit" and "soul". Mankind is "soul", while satan and his angels are "spirit".

Compare the lifespans of creatures:

- the angels including satan = (at least) 6000 years old so far, most likely older

- the fallen's children (demons) = in prison since the flood (approx 4000yrs)

- adam (early man) = max. 930 years (and mankind has declined since)

- modern man = barely reaches 100-120 years

- a dog = 10-13 yrs

- a fly = 28 days


...and now, not to be gruesome, but imagine setting fire to each of these creatures starting from the fly and working our way up. How long would it take a fly to burn up compared to a dog...how long for a small dog compared to a modern man?

Of course, if we extrapolate this out imagine how long it would take for a modern man to burn up compared to a demon...then a demon compared to an angel.

----

If we assume for a moment that the lake of fire is an incinerator, isn't it reasonable to expect that it would take much longer to destroy satan and his cohorts - who existed before the beginning of the earth - than it would to destroy mere men?

Also, recall movies you've seen of men who burn to death...again, pardon my graphic imagery. There is great weeping and gnashing of teeth as the person is consumed, and then when they've expired - no longer alive, no longer in pain - their body still continues to burn and burn...until it eventually becomes cremated and is no longer fuel for the fire.

They are annihilated. Like chaff that blows in the wind, they are ash.

Malachi 4:3 (the day of the lord)
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Laura798]

That's completely irrelevant. It's clearly saying they were there before satan was which proves Premill to be true. They were cast into lake at the Rev 19 second coming but satan was not cast into the lake until AFTER the thousand years. That proves they were in the lake LONG before satan will be cast into there.

They cant be in the lake of fire a 1000 years as the lake of fire SIGNIFIES the second death. We know this because the angel states this 2 or 3 times. There is no REAL Lake of fire. Additionally We know this since hell and death and angelic beings are thrown into it. Hell and death are not matter so cannot burn neither are angelic being matter. With these two we can rationally deduce the lake if fire is figurative and not literal.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 20:10 says that only the devil will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

Rev. 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Except, in Rev20:10, the word "G928 - basanisthēsontai " ("shall be tormented") is in the "third person PLURAL" ("they shall be tormented"):

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm






____________

...and again, the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (in ALL 21x of its occurrences) always means the same thing (see listing of those occurrences in Post #230 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677486

____________

Additionally, in scripture, wherever a number is used alongside the word "years" (and/or "months"), it always *means* "____ years" (THAT MANY "years"--the writer intends for the readers to think of "THAT MANY years"... [or "THAT MANY months"]). So the "1000 years" means just that.




And Revelation 1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1] is saying that the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book (what is going to be "SHOW[n]" unto John, re: the FUTURE aspects) are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" 1:1 (NOT things which would transpire over some near-2000 years or longer), starting with 4:1 ("Come up...I WILL SHOW");

These "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" things (the "FUTURE" aspects) are set in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3) which are NOT said of THEM that they are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS," by contrast, see.

 

[Gardenias]

When God first spoke to Moses did he not do it with a burning bush to get Mose's attention.
Burning,hot flaming fire but the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED!

 

[Gardenias]

Amen.

Also, notice that the beast and the false prophet are still there since they were thrown in before the Millenium (Rev 19); They have been in the LOF for 1000 years at that point. They are not annihilated. The burning bush (Ex 3) is a good symbol of the eternal fire:

“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked,
and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.” (Exodus 3:2)​

Sorry! I did not see you had addressed fire w/ o consummation in God dealing with Moses.

 

[Laura798]

When God first spoke to Moses did he not do it with a burning bush to get Mose's attention.
Burning,hot flaming fire but the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED!

Only the righteous are NOT consumed by the fire, the chaff is burned to stubble. Think Shadrach Meschak aand Abdnego.
“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.”—Isaiah 43:2

 

[Yahshua]

Only the righteous are NOT consumed by the fire, the chaff is burned to stubble. Think Shadrach Meschak aand Abdnego.
“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.”—Isaiah 43:2

lol, I was too slow. Was literally typing it when I see your notification.

Matthew 13:43
"Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear".

 

[ewq1938]

They cant be in the lake of fire a 1000 years as the lake of fire SIGNIFIES the second death.

That isn't a valid reason why they can't be in lake before thousand years begin. They are cast in at Armageddon, which is before thousand years begin.

There is no REAL Lake of fire.

Also irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it's literal or symbolic, it is the language God uses for when he is destroying someone.

Additionally We know this since hell and death and angelic beings are thrown into it. Hell and death are not matter so cannot burn neither are angelic being matter. With these two we can rationally deduce the lake if fire is figurative and not literal.

See above.

 

[Gardenias]

SDA co founder E White also believed there were other intelligent life forms on other planets and universes.

Hmmm lens of man made doctrine wool hooo wonder who holds to that junk!

 

[Diakonos]

Revelation 20:10 says that only the devil will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

Rev. 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But actually the devil ends up destroyed, too.

Hebrews 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So once again, the Bible does not teach any sort of eternal torment.

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10, NASB95)

The Greek word is βασανισθήσονται, which is written in the plural tense, meaning it is a plurality of people, and the action (torment) is being done to them.
That's what John wrote when he wrote this verse.

 

[Laura798]

When God first spoke to Moses did he not do it with a burning bush to get Mose's attention.
Burning,hot flaming fire but the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED!

God/ Righteousness was in the midst of the bush not Satan/Evil!

“
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” —Matthew 3:11-12

I would think a kind person would be overjoyed to discover that God would not cruelly torture someone for all eternity for a short time of sin on this earth. Also that if one were a true believer they would believe Christ paid the penalty in full by his death on the cross. You have to deny this if you think instead eternal conscious torment is the penalty.


Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Chaff
"

 

[Laura798]

SDA co founder E White also believed there were other intelligent life forms on other planets and universes.

Hmmm lens of man made doctrine wool hooo wonder who holds to that junk!

No one one this forum is a 7th day adventist— and ive never heard of that before— ill need to look that up. Its surprising that all denominations mix some false doctrine with truth. Only 8 were saved when God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth with the Flood, so too at the end of the age. Only a remnant will be saved.

 

[Laura798]

No one one this forum is a 7th day adventist— and ive never heard of that before— ill need to look that up. Its surprising that all denominations mix some false doctrine with truth. Only 8 were saved when God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth with the Flood, so too at the end of the age. Only a remnant will be saved.

Lutherans, Church of God, Wesleyans and many nondenominational churches do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

 

[Laura798]

SDA co founder E White also believed there were other intelligent life forms on other planets and universes.

Hmmm lens of man made doctrine wool hooo wonder who holds to that junk!

Lutherans, Church of God, Wesleyans and many nondenominational churches do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

 

[Gardenias]

Lutherans, Church of God, Wesleyans and many nondenominational churches do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

I was Church of God out of Seireville Tn for 20 yrs full member and your info is incorrect. They believe in an eternal conscious torment for devil,his angels and those who reject God til time is no more......

 

[Laura798]

Lutherans, Church of God, Wesleyans and many nondenominational churches do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Lutherans, Church of God, Wesleyans and many nondenominational churches do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Gardenias, the red X means you disagree with a point someone ismaking. I stated a fact so your giving it a red x is very childish and immature— your speech and behavior gives away your immature faith and bitter spirit.