What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
- Thread starter Radius
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Pilgrim,
You said: "How can they who cease to exist , also be those having no rest day or night ?"
The verse you refer to is NOT the 'lake of fire' (symbolic of destruction)
Read carefully the verse,
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who WORSHIP the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” --Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
Understand there is NO day and night in eternity, so this will happen on the earth--this torment that ascended forever is the same 'forever' that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. They were burned to ashes never to rise again--they still find sulphur balls there.
First of all it says those who "WORSHIP" the beast, NOT 'worshipped'--the same way God sent fire on Sodom and Gommorrah God is going to send fire on the earth just before Christ's Second Coming.
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."--Revelations 8:7
"22 I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him
and on his troops and on the many nations with him. "--Ezekiel 38:22
"The streams of Edom will be filled with burning pitch, and the ground will be covered with fire."--Isaiah 34:9
ALL OF REVELATION IS FiGURATIVE--the angel explains what some of those things are. For example when He says the dragon IS____ the the many waters ARE_________ the lake of fire IS__________________
Note too, that the smoke of their torment in this context means PUNISHMENT.
______________
Pilgrim,
You said: "How can they who cease to exist , also be those having no rest day or night ?"
The verse you refer to is NOT the 'lake of fire' (symbolic of destruction)
Read carefully the verse,
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who WORSHIP the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” --Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
Note too, that the smoke of their torment in this context means PUNISHMENT.
Understand there is NO day and night in eternity, so this will happen on the earth--this torment that ascended forever is the same 'forever' that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. They were burned to ashes never to rise again--they still find sulphur balls there.
First of all it says those who "WORSHIP" the beast, NOT 'worshipped'--the same way God sent fire on Sodom and Gommorrah God is going to send fire on the earth just before Christ's Second Coming.
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."--Revelations 8:7
"22 I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him
and on his troops and on the many nations with him. "--Ezekiel 38:22
"The streams of Edom will be filled with burning pitch, and the ground will be covered with fire."--Isaiah 34:9
ALL OF REVELATION IS FiGURATIVE--the angel explains what some of those things are. For example when He says the dragon IS____ the many waters ARE_________ the lake of fire IS__________________
Pilgrim,
You said: "How can they who cease to exist , also be those having no rest day or night ?"
The verse you refer to is NOT the 'lake of fire' (symbolic of destruction)
Read carefully the verse,
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who WORSHIP the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” --Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
Note too, that the smoke of their torment in this context means PUNISHMENT.
Understand there is NO day and night in eternity, so this will happen on the earth--this torment that ascended forever is the same 'forever' that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. They were burned to ashes never to rise again--they still find sulphur balls there.
First of all it says those who "WORSHIP" the beast, NOT 'worshipped'--the same way God sent fire on Sodom and Gommorrah God is going to send fire on the earth just before Christ's Second Coming.
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."--Revelations 8:7
"22 I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him
and on his troops and on the many nations with him. "--Ezekiel 38:22
"The streams of Edom will be filled with burning pitch, and the ground will be covered with fire."--Isaiah 34:9
ALL OF REVELATION IS FiGURATIVE--the angel explains what some of those things are. For example when He says the dragon IS____ the many waters ARE_________ the lake of fire IS__________________
Many "amillennialists" take the following passage to be referring to "eternity" (that is, after this life on earth; personally I believe it's speaking of Isaiah 49:10 an earthly MK age passage--but I'm not an amillennialist, either 
)...
Revelation 7 -
14 And I said to him, “My lord, you know.”
And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Because of this,
‘They are before the throne of God,
and serve Him day and night in His temple;
and the One sitting on the throne
will tabernacle over them.
16 they will not hunger any more,
neither will they thirst anymore,
nor shall the sun at all fall upon them,
nor any scorching heat;a
17 because the Lamb in the center of the throne
will shepherd them,b
and He will lead them to fountains living of waters,c
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’d”
[ ]
)...Revelation 7 -
14 And I said to him, “My lord, you know.”
And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Because of this,
‘They are before the throne of God,
and serve Him day and night in His temple;
and the One sitting on the throne
will tabernacle over them.
16 they will not hunger any more,
neither will they thirst anymore,
nor shall the sun at all fall upon them,
nor any scorching heat;a
17 because the Lamb in the center of the throne
will shepherd them,b
and He will lead them to fountains living of waters,c
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’d”
[
]
How is it possible that we are all sinners of different degree but receive the same salvation?
With God all things are possible Fact is, we all deserve death.
Question reminds me of the parable Jesus told of hiring people throughout the
day and then paying them all the same wage. Men grumbled. God sees it as fair.
With God all things are possible
Fact is, we all deserve death.Question reminds me of the parable Jesus told of hiring people throughout the
day and then paying them all the same wage. Men grumbled. God sees it as fair.
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The word in Rev20:10 translated "tormented" ['they shall be tormented'] is G928 [verb], right?
If you're willing to agree that G931 [noun] is a related word, then CONSIDER the following verse speaking of "torments [G931; noun]" existing in this life on earth, and how it says of them they can indeed be "various / divers" (of differing kinds and varying intensities, wouldn't you say?):
Matthew 4:24 -
International Standard Version
"His fame spread throughout Syria, and people brought to him everyone who was sick—those afflicted with various diseases and pains [torments G931], the demon-possessed, the epileptics, and the paralyzed—and he healed them."
kjv
"And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments G931 , and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."
And here's G928 used also regarding one's life existence on earth, where it adds the adverb "grievously" ('vehemently, terribly'):
Matthew 8:6 V-PPM/P-NMS
GRK: παραλυτικός δεινῶς βασανιζόμενος
NAS: at home, fearfully tormented.
KJV: grievously tormented.
INT: paralyzed grievously tormented
To me, even this sounds like there are varying degrees (of G928), even during this life on earth.
If you're willing to agree that G931 [noun] is a related word, then CONSIDER the following verse speaking of "torments [G931; noun]" existing in this life on earth, and how it says of them they can indeed be "various / divers" (of differing kinds and varying intensities, wouldn't you say?):
Matthew 4:24 -
International Standard Version
"His fame spread throughout Syria, and people brought to him everyone who was sick—those afflicted with various diseases and pains [torments G931], the demon-possessed, the epileptics, and the paralyzed—and he healed them."
kjv
"And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments G931 , and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."
And here's G928 used also regarding one's life existence on earth, where it adds the adverb "grievously" ('vehemently, terribly'):
Matthew 8:6 V-PPM/P-NMS
GRK: παραλυτικός δεινῶς βασανιζόμενος
NAS: at home, fearfully tormented.
KJV: grievously tormented.
INT: paralyzed grievously tormented
To me, even this sounds like there are varying degrees (of G928), even during this life on earth.
Apparently then, Magenta agrees with this ONE verse assessment?:
Precious friends, do you Also agree with these interesting findings
by Ralph G Bowles, in "the link"?:
The "Conditionalist {annihilation} interpretation" of Revelation Rev_14:11:
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and
his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
using these methods of interpretation?:
"...when this verse is read through the interpretative grid...
...referencing symbolism for this description of judgement...
...the presence of a structure such as chiasmus (inverted parallelism)...
...may be due to an inverted parallelistic structure...
...Allowance should be made for the use of hyperbole...
...the presence of such complex inverted parallelisms...
...The climactic element is in the central position in this structure...
...The other two elements in the inversion...
...The meaning can be seen by observing the corresponding member of the inverted parallelism....
...It is the literary structure of Revelation 14:9-11 that provides the explanation of the meaning of the judgement and its elements. The crucial key to understanding phrases or sentences is found by matching them with their corresponding items in the whole structure....
...the interpreter's theological grasp, his or her "systematic theology" ... may be faulty at many points, but it may be very difficult to spot the faults. The reason is that this synthesis, this systematic theology, itself becomes a controlling grid by which to interpret Scripture, under the guise of serving as the analogy of the faith.
..."
+
"A new exegetical interpretation of Revelation 14: 11 is proposed, suggesting
that the traditional reading of the elements of this verse misses the inverted
parallelistic structure of the unit Revelation 14:9-11. When the chiasm is discerned, the meaning of the text is seen to give no confirmation to 'eternal torment."
Dr. Bowles says: "theologians must base their conclusions on a reasoned exegesis of Scvripture."
---------------------------------------------------------
Wowsie Woosie, IF I have to add all that "Reasonable systematic theology "
to my "study" habits, then I WILL Probably Remain Totally Confused for
Eternal ages!
I have found none of these "explaining away" tactics in:
God's Bible "study" Rules, but have found:
"“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s
wisdom teacheth, but Which The Holy Ghost Teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual!” (1_Corinthians_2:13)
"A closer examination of this key text is needed." Agree! But How about
"Comparing Scripture With It's OWN Best Commentary, Scripture!"
{Rules # 5c And # 6}, and "allow our Blessed Teacher" to Give us
spiritual understanding? How about "Simplicity In CHRIST"?:
theological statement hinting at "annihilation"?:
"The clause 'they have no rest day or night' is a description of the moment or process of divine judgement, one among the many found in the Revelation to John; it is not a description of the eternal state of the judged. What other passages in this book suggest an eternally conscious tormenting judgement for the enemies of God?"
How convenient to mislead readers by Leaving Out {De 4:4; Pr 30:5-6; Re 22:18-19 /
/ Rule # 3} God's Words "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever"
and making it {'they have no rest day or night'} "the moment or process of divine judgment," Instead of the Results of "said process," Correct? Isn't that "the Cart
{Results?} Before the horse {process}"?
Other {But Why limit us to just Revelation?} "Passages suggesting an eternally conscious tormenting"? How about the Clear Passage of JESUS HIMSELF,
"Teaching a Pre-Cursor" to this doctrine":
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried
by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Of course, Critics of God's Plain And Clear Word, have for years (centuries?)
denied that this is literal about "the spiritual realm {world}, saying:
"Oh no, it's only a parable, God really means something else! This Cannot
possibly "Be literally True," since "we KNOW The dead are UNconscious!"
And, Exactly How do "they know that"? Have They Actually "Been There," and UNconscious, remember {like the "rich man"}, that they were UNconscious,
and, then resurrected "From That UNconscious state," to "teach us that."
I have heard of NDE's before, But Not This New theology?
Why Don't we Just trust JESUS' Words Of Truth, Instead of men's?
"Oh, No" they exclaim "we got it From The Bible" "the DEAD KNOW
NOTHING!" (Ecc somewhere). Yes, yes, I know, creators of God's Sound
Doctrine "from ONE verse" that is dubious and Uncertain "as to the real
meaning," ignoring ALL The Rest Of The Plain and Clear Scriptures!
{Rules # 5 And # 6}
Sheesh LORD, I am getting Very weary, should I really Continue? (1Co 15:58)?
Maybe tomorrow, eh? Amen.
With All the Peace, love of The Truth, And GRACE Of God = maybe! And that's
FINAL!!
by Ralph G Bowles, in "the link"?:
The "Conditionalist {annihilation} interpretation" of Revelation Rev_14:11:
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and
his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
using these methods of interpretation?:
"...when this verse is read through the interpretative grid...
...referencing symbolism for this description of judgement...
...the presence of a structure such as chiasmus (inverted parallelism)...
...may be due to an inverted parallelistic structure...
...Allowance should be made for the use of hyperbole...
...the presence of such complex inverted parallelisms...
...The climactic element is in the central position in this structure...
...The other two elements in the inversion...
...The meaning can be seen by observing the corresponding member of the inverted parallelism....
...It is the literary structure of Revelation 14:9-11 that provides the explanation of the meaning of the judgement and its elements. The crucial key to understanding phrases or sentences is found by matching them with their corresponding items in the whole structure....
...the interpreter's theological grasp, his or her "systematic theology" ... may be faulty at many points, but it may be very difficult to spot the faults. The reason is that this synthesis, this systematic theology, itself becomes a controlling grid by which to interpret Scripture, under the guise of serving as the analogy of the faith.
..."
+
"A new exegetical interpretation of Revelation 14: 11 is proposed, suggesting
that the traditional reading of the elements of this verse misses the inverted
parallelistic structure of the unit Revelation 14:9-11. When the chiasm is discerned, the meaning of the text is seen to give no confirmation to 'eternal torment."
Dr. Bowles says: "theologians must base their conclusions on a reasoned exegesis of Scvripture."
---------------------------------------------------------
Wowsie Woosie, IF I have to add all that "Reasonable systematic theology "
to my "study" habits, then I WILL Probably Remain Totally Confused for
Eternal ages!
I have found none of these "explaining away" tactics in:
God's Bible "study" Rules, but have found:
"“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s
wisdom teacheth, but Which The Holy Ghost Teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual!” (1_Corinthians_2:13)
"A closer examination of this key text is needed." Agree! But How about
"Comparing Scripture With It's OWN Best Commentary, Scripture!"
{Rules # 5c And # 6}, and "allow our Blessed Teacher" to Give us
spiritual understanding? How about "Simplicity In CHRIST"?:
theological statement hinting at "annihilation"?:
"The clause 'they have no rest day or night' is a description of the moment or process of divine judgement, one among the many found in the Revelation to John; it is not a description of the eternal state of the judged. What other passages in this book suggest an eternally conscious tormenting judgement for the enemies of God?"
How convenient to mislead readers by Leaving Out {De 4:4; Pr 30:5-6; Re 22:18-19 /
/ Rule # 3} God's Words "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever"
and making it {'they have no rest day or night'} "the moment or process of divine judgment," Instead of the Results of "said process," Correct? Isn't that "the Cart
{Results?} Before the horse {process}"?
Other {But Why limit us to just Revelation?} "Passages suggesting an eternally conscious tormenting"? How about the Clear Passage of JESUS HIMSELF,
"Teaching a Pre-Cursor" to this doctrine":
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried
by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Of course, Critics of God's Plain And Clear Word, have for years (centuries?)
denied that this is literal about "the spiritual realm {world}, saying:
"Oh no, it's only a parable, God really means something else! This Cannot
possibly "Be literally True," since "we KNOW The dead are UNconscious!"
And, Exactly How do "they know that"? Have They Actually "Been There," and UNconscious, remember {like the "rich man"}, that they were UNconscious,
and, then resurrected "From That UNconscious state," to "teach us that."
I have heard of NDE's before, But Not This New theology?
Why Don't we Just trust JESUS' Words Of Truth, Instead of men's?
"Oh, No" they exclaim "we got it From The Bible" "the DEAD KNOW
NOTHING!" (Ecc somewhere). Yes, yes, I know, creators of God's Sound
Doctrine "from ONE verse" that is dubious and Uncertain "as to the real
meaning," ignoring ALL The Rest Of The Plain and Clear Scriptures!
{Rules # 5 And # 6}
Sheesh LORD, I am getting Very weary, should I really Continue? (1Co 15:58)?
Maybe tomorrow, eh? Amen.
With All the Peace, love of The Truth, And GRACE Of God = maybe! And that's
FINAL!!
This is how I understand it as well (and pertains to the chronology issues I'd posted about).
I really like this quote / commentary by William Kelly on this point, which should be read carefully:
[quoting]
[Rev20:11-15] "Here is seen but one throne. It is the last judgment, the eternal judgment. Even when God was judging providentially, in the beginning of the Apocalyptic visions (Rev. 4), associated thrones were seen. When Christ came personally to judge and govern the quick (Revelation 20:4), thrones were seen; for the risen saints reign with Him But now there is but one throne: Christ judges the dead. Not a word implies His then coming, but the risen wicked stand before the throne.
""And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled and place was not found for them." This is of immense moment doctrinally, because it decisively proves that it is altogether unfounded to assume, as is popularly done, that the Lord only returns at this juncture. By the coming of the Lord all must mean His coming to the habitable earth. But manifestly, if the Lord does not come before this, there is no world to come to; for the earth and heavens were fled. The common notion therefore, that the coming of the Lord is at this point, is an evident fallacy upon the face of the scripture which describes it, not to speak of others that confirm it elsewhere."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Revelation 20 (at BibleHub)
[end quoting]
I really like this quote / commentary by William Kelly on this point, which should be read carefully:
[quoting]
[Rev20:11-15] "Here is seen but one throne. It is the last judgment, the eternal judgment. Even when God was judging providentially, in the beginning of the Apocalyptic visions (Rev. 4), associated thrones were seen. When Christ came personally to judge and govern the quick (Revelation 20:4), thrones were seen; for the risen saints reign with Him But now there is but one throne: Christ judges the dead. Not a word implies His then coming, but the risen wicked stand before the throne.
""And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled and place was not found for them." This is of immense moment doctrinally, because it decisively proves that it is altogether unfounded to assume, as is popularly done, that the Lord only returns at this juncture. By the coming of the Lord all must mean His coming to the habitable earth. But manifestly, if the Lord does not come before this, there is no world to come to; for the earth and heavens were fled. The common notion therefore, that the coming of the Lord is at this point, is an evident fallacy upon the face of the scripture which describes it, not to speak of others that confirm it elsewhere."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Revelation 20 (at BibleHub)
[end quoting]
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1
- Show all
I said if you're willing... (I figured you wouldn't...)
You obviously do NOT agree that the kjv translation "tormented" (in Rev20:10--a verb) and "[divers...] torments" (Matt4:24--a noun) are in any way related or in any remote way at all similar whatsoever... fine.
Please disregard my post.
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g931/kjv/tr/0-1/
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g928/kjv/tr/0-1/
You obviously do NOT agree that the kjv translation "tormented" (in Rev20:10--a verb) and "[divers...] torments" (Matt4:24--a noun) are in any way related or in any remote way at all similar whatsoever... fine.
Please disregard my post.
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g931/kjv/tr/0-1/
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g928/kjv/tr/0-1/
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g931/kjv/tr/0-1/ [G931 noun; THESE can be "DIVERS / DIVERSE / VARIOUS / VARIED," per Matt4:24]
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g928/kjv/tr/0-1/ [G928 verb]
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g928/kjv/tr/0-1/ [G928 verb]
Apparently then, Magenta agrees with this ONE verse assessment?:
Precious friends, do you Also agree with these interesting findings
by Ralph G Bowles, in "the link"?:
The "Conditionalist {annihilation} interpretation" of Revelation Rev_14:11:
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and
his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
using these methods of interpretation?:
"...when this verse is read through the interpretative grid...
...referencing symbolism for this description of judgement...
...the presence of a structure such as chiasmus (inverted parallelism)...
...may be due to an inverted parallelistic structure...
...Allowance should be made for the use of hyperbole...
...the presence of such complex inverted parallelisms...
...The climactic element is in the central position in this structure...
...The other two elements in the inversion...
...The meaning can be seen by observing the corresponding member of the inverted parallelism....
...It is the literary structure of Revelation 14:9-11 that provides the explanation of the meaning of the judgement and its elements. The crucial key to understanding phrases or sentences is found by matching them with their corresponding items in the whole structure....
...the interpreter's theological grasp, his or her "systematic theology" ... may be faulty at many points, but it may be very difficult to spot the faults. The reason is that this synthesis, this systematic theology, itself becomes a controlling grid by which to interpret Scripture, under the guise of serving as the analogy of the faith.
..."
+
"A new exegetical interpretation of Revelation 14: 11 is proposed, suggesting
that the traditional reading of the elements of this verse misses the inverted
parallelistic structure of the unit Revelation 14:9-11. When the chiasm is discerned, the meaning of the text is seen to give no confirmation to 'eternal torment."
Dr. Bowles says: "theologians must base their conclusions on a reasoned exegesis of Scvripture."
---------------------------------------------------------
Wowsie Woosie, IF I have to add all that "Reasonable systematic theology "
to my "study" habits, then I WILL Probably Remain Totally Confused for
Eternal ages!
I have found none of these "explaining away" tactics in:
God's Bible "study" Rules, but have found:
"“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s
wisdom teacheth, but Which The Holy Ghost Teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual!” (1_Corinthians_2:13)
"A closer examination of this key text is needed." Agree! But How about
"Comparing Scripture With It's OWN Best Commentary, Scripture!"
{Rules # 5c And # 6}, and "allow our Blessed Teacher" to Give us
spiritual understanding? How about "Simplicity In CHRIST"?:
theological statement hinting at "annihilation"?:
"The clause 'they have no rest day or night' is a description of the moment or process of divine judgement, one among the many found in the Revelation to John; it is not a description of the eternal state of the judged. What other passages in this book suggest an eternally conscious tormenting judgement for the enemies of God?"
How convenient to mislead readers by Leaving Out {De 4:4; Pr 30:5-6; Re 22:18-19 /
/ Rule # 3} God's Words "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever"
and making it {'they have no rest day or night'} "the moment or process of divine judgment," Instead of the Results of "said process," Correct? Isn't that "the Cart
{Results?} Before the horse {process}"?
Other {But Why limit us to just Revelation?} "Passages suggesting an eternally conscious tormenting"? How about the Clear Passage of JESUS HIMSELF,
"Teaching a Pre-Cursor" to this doctrine":
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried
by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Of course, Critics of God's Plain And Clear Word, have for years (centuries?)
denied that this is literal about "the spiritual realm {world}, saying:
"Oh no, it's only a parable, God really means something else! This Cannot
possibly "Be literally True," since "we KNOW The dead are UNconscious!"
And, Exactly How do "they know that"? Have They Actually "Been There," and UNconscious, remember {like the "rich man"}, that they were UNconscious,
and, then resurrected "From That UNconscious state," to "teach us that."
I have heard of NDE's before, But Not This New theology?
Why Don't we Just trust JESUS' Words Of Truth, Instead of men's?
"Oh, No" they exclaim "we got it From The Bible" "the DEAD KNOW
NOTHING!" (Ecc somewhere). Yes, yes, I know, creators of God's Sound
Doctrine "from ONE verse" that is dubious and Uncertain "as to the real
meaning," ignoring ALL The Rest Of The Plain and Clear Scriptures!
{Rules # 5 And # 6}
Sheesh LORD, I am getting Very weary, should I really Continue? (1Co 15:58)?
Maybe tomorrow, eh? Amen.
With All the Peace, love of The Truth, And GRACE Of God = maybe! And that's
FINAL!!
Precious friends, do you Also agree with these interesting findings
by Ralph G Bowles, in "the link"?:
The "Conditionalist {annihilation} interpretation" of Revelation Rev_14:11:
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and
his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
using these methods of interpretation?:
"...when this verse is read through the interpretative grid...
...referencing symbolism for this description of judgement...
...the presence of a structure such as chiasmus (inverted parallelism)...
...may be due to an inverted parallelistic structure...
...Allowance should be made for the use of hyperbole...
...the presence of such complex inverted parallelisms...
...The climactic element is in the central position in this structure...
...The other two elements in the inversion...
...The meaning can be seen by observing the corresponding member of the inverted parallelism....
...It is the literary structure of Revelation 14:9-11 that provides the explanation of the meaning of the judgement and its elements. The crucial key to understanding phrases or sentences is found by matching them with their corresponding items in the whole structure....
...the interpreter's theological grasp, his or her "systematic theology" ... may be faulty at many points, but it may be very difficult to spot the faults. The reason is that this synthesis, this systematic theology, itself becomes a controlling grid by which to interpret Scripture, under the guise of serving as the analogy of the faith.
..."
+
"A new exegetical interpretation of Revelation 14: 11 is proposed, suggesting
that the traditional reading of the elements of this verse misses the inverted
parallelistic structure of the unit Revelation 14:9-11. When the chiasm is discerned, the meaning of the text is seen to give no confirmation to 'eternal torment."
Dr. Bowles says: "theologians must base their conclusions on a reasoned exegesis of Scvripture."
---------------------------------------------------------
Wowsie Woosie, IF I have to add all that "Reasonable systematic theology "
to my "study" habits, then I WILL Probably Remain Totally Confused for
Eternal ages!
I have found none of these "explaining away" tactics in:
God's Bible "study" Rules, but have found:
"“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s
wisdom teacheth, but Which The Holy Ghost Teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual!” (1_Corinthians_2:13)
"A closer examination of this key text is needed." Agree! But How about
"Comparing Scripture With It's OWN Best Commentary, Scripture!"
{Rules # 5c And # 6}, and "allow our Blessed Teacher" to Give us
spiritual understanding? How about "Simplicity In CHRIST"?:
theological statement hinting at "annihilation"?:
"The clause 'they have no rest day or night' is a description of the moment or process of divine judgement, one among the many found in the Revelation to John; it is not a description of the eternal state of the judged. What other passages in this book suggest an eternally conscious tormenting judgement for the enemies of God?"
How convenient to mislead readers by Leaving Out {De 4:4; Pr 30:5-6; Re 22:18-19 /
/ Rule # 3} God's Words "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever"
and making it {'they have no rest day or night'} "the moment or process of divine judgment," Instead of the Results of "said process," Correct? Isn't that "the Cart
{Results?} Before the horse {process}"?
Other {But Why limit us to just Revelation?} "Passages suggesting an eternally conscious tormenting"? How about the Clear Passage of JESUS HIMSELF,
"Teaching a Pre-Cursor" to this doctrine":
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried
by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Of course, Critics of God's Plain And Clear Word, have for years (centuries?)
denied that this is literal about "the spiritual realm {world}, saying:
"Oh no, it's only a parable, God really means something else! This Cannot
possibly "Be literally True," since "we KNOW The dead are UNconscious!"
And, Exactly How do "they know that"? Have They Actually "Been There," and UNconscious, remember {like the "rich man"}, that they were UNconscious,
and, then resurrected "From That UNconscious state," to "teach us that."
I have heard of NDE's before, But Not This New theology?
Why Don't we Just trust JESUS' Words Of Truth, Instead of men's?
"Oh, No" they exclaim "we got it From The Bible" "the DEAD KNOW
NOTHING!" (Ecc somewhere). Yes, yes, I know, creators of God's Sound
Doctrine "from ONE verse" that is dubious and Uncertain "as to the real
meaning," ignoring ALL The Rest Of The Plain and Clear Scriptures!
{Rules # 5 And # 6}
Sheesh LORD, I am getting Very weary, should I really Continue? (1Co 15:58)?
Maybe tomorrow, eh? Amen.
With All the Peace, love of The Truth, And GRACE Of God = maybe! And that's
FINAL!!
Revelation is a highly symbolic apocalyptic book.
Apocalypse: marked by pseudonymity, symbolic imagery, and the expectation of an imminent cosmic cataclysm in which God destroys the ruling powers of evil and raises the righteous to life in a messianic kingdom. Revelation: borrowed from Greek apokálypsis "uncovering, disclosure, revelation," from apokalyp-, stem of apokalýptein "to uncover, disclose, reveal" (from apo- APO- + kalýptein "to cover, protect, conceal," of uncertain origin
Let me ask you: Did God create the universe out of nothing?
Why would it be a problem for so many that those not aligned with God will to return to nothing?
It was said of Jesus that He only taught in parables. Who made up the rule that the rich man and Lazarus cannot be a parable because names of real people are mentioned? That rule is nowhere found in Scripture, and smacks of traditions of men to me.
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[continuing from my previous post... re: the "G931" word]
In this context, below, there still remains TIME (his desire being for others still existing on the earth, to be testified unto, so they don't have to come there also)--so this is at a time PRIOR TO the GWTj time-slot:
Luke 16:23
And in hell/hades he lift up his eyes, being in torments G931 [noun, plural] and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Luke 16:28
"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment G931 ."
In this context, below, there still remains TIME (his desire being for others still existing on the earth, to be testified unto, so they don't have to come there also)--so this is at a time PRIOR TO the GWTj time-slot:
Luke 16:23
And in hell/hades he lift up his eyes, being in torments G931 [noun, plural] and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Luke 16:28
"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment G931 ."
DW,
I'll hang on to EWQ coat tails and add the definitions of exegesis vs eisegesis
Words obviously have different meaning in different contexts.
"Words, phrases, and expressions can have different meanings in different contexts. The study of these different meanings is known as semantics. This branch of study examines four qualities of word meaning – denotative, figurative, metaphorical, and connotative ..." https://englishwithnab.com/why-words-have-different-meanings-in-different-contexts/
Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.
The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text.
Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.
I'll hang on to EWQ coat tails and add the definitions of exegesis vs eisegesis
Words obviously have different meaning in different contexts.
"Words, phrases, and expressions can have different meanings in different contexts. The study of these different meanings is known as semantics. This branch of study examines four qualities of word meaning – denotative, figurative, metaphorical, and connotative ..." https://englishwithnab.com/why-words-have-different-meanings-in-different-contexts/
Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.
The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text.
Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.
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[EDIT to ADD to my last post] ^ In the chronology...
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hell/Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and each of them were judged according to their works." Rev20:13
["hell / Hades" was what Jesus had been illustrating in His words in Lk16 (showing there remained yet "TIME" and ppl existing ON THE EARTH [the guy's "brothers"]); THIS in Rev20 ^ is what FOLLOWS "hell / Hades"... at the GWTj point in time (no "TIME" remains on the earth at this point)]
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hell/Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and each of them were judged according to their works." Rev20:13
["hell / Hades" was what Jesus had been illustrating in His words in Lk16 (showing there remained yet "TIME" and ppl existing ON THE EARTH [the guy's "brothers"]); THIS in Rev20 ^ is what FOLLOWS "hell / Hades"... at the GWTj point in time (no "TIME" remains on the earth at this point)]
Yeah I was saying you have to study ot scripture to understand it but it does say they never rest doesn’t it ? I see you skipped the question h
you seriously think he’s talking about worms lol ?
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:43-44 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:48 KJV
Or Do you think he’s talking about prophecy regarding the new heaven and earth he was speaking forth in the old times ?
“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
you don’t think it’s more likely a reference to that recurring phrase of the place he continually is warning about not going there ?
“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:47-48 KJV
so If revelation is in fact a revelation then it would be revealing things
“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
One would have to agree that judgement occurs after the body dies also it seems so would have to acknowledge existence of a living spirit in both good and evil people.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
warning believers not to go to this place ?
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
Luke 16:22-24 KJV
remember his body was buried and yet he is alive and coherent. Would you say his spirit is what’s in hell in torment of flame ? And he seems worried about his family coming to that place of torment after they die this spiritual place for wicked souls when they part the flesh like the rich man
“For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.”
Luke 16:28 KJV
so surely we can agree there is a spiritual place of torment after death that some will enter into after they die and are buried and others will go
To abrahams side
And that it doesn’t have anything to do with worms 😁 but is a reference to what the prophets had been establishing for hundreds of years and is Gods warning to mankind to believe him and not go into that place of eternal damnation and torment darkness
“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 25:30
Do you agree man has a spirit that is going to be held accountable table for what they do good and evil ?
you seriously think he’s talking about worms lol ?
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:43-44 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:48 KJV
Or Do you think he’s talking about prophecy regarding the new heaven and earth he was speaking forth in the old times ?
“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
you don’t think it’s more likely a reference to that recurring phrase of the place he continually is warning about not going there ?
“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:47-48 KJV
so If revelation is in fact a revelation then it would be revealing things
“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
One would have to agree that judgement occurs after the body dies also it seems so would have to acknowledge existence of a living spirit in both good and evil people.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
warning believers not to go to this place ?
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
Luke 16:22-24 KJV
remember his body was buried and yet he is alive and coherent. Would you say his spirit is what’s in hell in torment of flame ? And he seems worried about his family coming to that place of torment after they die this spiritual place for wicked souls when they part the flesh like the rich man
“For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.”
Luke 16:28 KJV
so surely we can agree there is a spiritual place of torment after death that some will enter into after they die and are buried and others will go
To abrahams side
And that it doesn’t have anything to do with worms 😁 but is a reference to what the prophets had been establishing for hundreds of years and is Gods warning to mankind to believe him and not go into that place of eternal damnation and torment darkness
“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 25:30
Do you agree man has a spirit that is going to be held accountable table for what they do good and evil ?
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aa
Pilgrims,
Isaiah 66 say the worm does not die and the fire does not go out--this means that the thing the worms and flames feed upon is UTTERLY CONSUMED. Also this is NOT as you would call "Hell' (and of course it can't be since it is thrown into the (figurative) lake of fire).
and it says they look on the dead bodies. And to put it another way they are BODIES THAT ARE DEAD.
This verse is speaking of the nations that will go against Israel at the end of the age-I have quoted other verses regarding this prophecy, one from Revelation. Here is one more:
"…7Therefore all hands will fall limp, and every man’s heart will melt. 8Terror, pain, and anguish will seize them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look at one another, aghast their faces aflame 9Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it.…"--Isaiah 13:7-9
Pilgrims,
Isaiah 66 say the worm does not die and the fire does not go out--this means that the thing the worms and flames feed upon is UTTERLY CONSUMED. Also this is NOT as you would call "Hell' (and of course it can't be since it is thrown into the (figurative) lake of fire).
and it says they look on the dead bodies. And to put it another way they are BODIES THAT ARE DEAD.
This verse is speaking of the nations that will go against Israel at the end of the age-I have quoted other verses regarding this prophecy, one from Revelation. Here is one more:
"…7Therefore all hands will fall limp, and every man’s heart will melt. 8Terror, pain, and anguish will seize them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look at one another, aghast their faces aflame 9Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it.…"--Isaiah 13:7-9