Rev 11, The (Two Witnesses) Will Rule The Tribulation By Plagues And God's Judgement

[Truth7t7]

to be honest this does seem to present the falling away but I still wonder if perhaps there is something deeper what does the falling away speak of exactly when it relates to this day coming because this is not anything new

By all means, please give your (Deeper) definition of the Greek word (Apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 below, that's translated as (Falling Away) in the English KJV below?

Waiting?

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Blain]

By all means, please give your deeper definition of the Greek word (Apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 below, that's translated as falling away in the English KJV?

Waiting?

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If you will not answer what I and cv5 requested I see no reason to answer yours. The reason I asked this is because it is no secret that the church has been divided and corruption has infiltrated it for a long time as well so I have pondering on this matter

 

[Truth7t7]

If you will not answer what I and cv5 requested I see no reason to answer yours. The reason I asked this is because it is no secret that the church has been divided and corruption has infiltrated it for a long time as well so I have pondering on this matter

Your claim I have not answered your claims and request is false, a diversion from presented truth that you wont answer.

You dont have a deeper understanding regarding (Falling Away) in 2 Thess 2:3, because it's the Apostasy of the Church, a falling away from truth once held simple.

You dont have a response concerning a pre- trib rapture of the Church to heaven, bacause it dosent exist in Gods words, nowhere

 

[Truth7t7]

By all means, please give your (Deeper) definition of the Greek word (Apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 below, that's translated as (Falling Away) in the English KJV below?

Waiting?

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Blain]

Your claim I have not answered your claims and request is false, a diversion from presented truth that you wont answer.

You dont have a deeper understanding regarding (Falling Away) in 2 Thess 2:3, because it's the Apostasy of the Church, a falling away from truth once held simple.

You dont have a response concerning a pre- trib rapture of the Church to heaven, bacause it dosent exist in Gods words, nowhere

And like I said it is easy to claim something is false and deception but with no evidence that is all it is. You don't answer because you can't all you can do is claim it is false but cannot prove it.

And as I said before this falling away as it is described in greek is exactly what you see in the church but if that is in fact this falling away then that would be that but if perhaps there is a falling away in the prophetic timeline that is not the kind we see now but on a deeper level this is why I said I feel like there is more to it.

And as for your last last one I told you I would but I won't play your little game if I am the only one playing I requested of you first and you refused so I will not Indulge you in your game

 

[Truth7t7]

And like I said it is easy to claim something is false and deception but with no evidence that is all it is. You don't answer because you can't all you can do is claim it is false but cannot prove it.

And as I said before this falling away as it is described in greek is exactly what you see in the church but if that is in fact this falling away then that would be that but if perhaps there is a falling away in the prophetic timeline that is not the kind we see now but on a deeper level this is why I said I feel like there is more to it.

And as for your last last one I told you I would but I won't play your little game if I am the only one playing I requested of you first and you refused so I will not Indulge you in your game

By all means, post one passage at a time of scripture to support a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, we will go real slow, waiting

 

[Blain]

By all means, post one passage at a time of scripture to support a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, we will go real slow, waiting

Then you will keep waiting. If you want to debate this subject then make your own thread for it I told you before I do not appreciate false accusations especially with no evidence. You seem to think you are well versed in scriptureal understanding and if this is so then it should be no problem to prove me wrong should it not? But if all you can do is say it is false and deception and yet cannot prove why then should you not question why you believe this to be true?

 

[Truth7t7]

Then you will keep waiting. If you want to debate this subject then make your own thread for it I told you before I do not appreciate false accusations especially with no evidence. You seem to think you are well versed in scriptureal understanding and if this is so then it should be no problem to prove me wrong should it not? But if all you can do is say it is false and deception and yet cannot prove why then should you not question why you believe this to be true?

No false accusations, its opinion

Blain you push the exact same playbook as dispensationalism, and only a minority push the teaching that (Apostasia) falling away suggest a pre-trib rapture.

I have shown you clearly, that in 2 Thess 2:1-4 these verses destroy the teaching of a pre-trib rapture, (Gone)

The Church will be present on earth to witness the Man Of Sin revealed

You have went so far as stating, the passage seen below wasnt directed to the Church

How can you have a simple debate, if a person cant acknowledge that the scripture was written to the Church of the Thessalonians.

It States clearly, the Church isnt going anywhere, until the 1.) (Apostasy) takes place, and 2.) the Man Of Sin/Antichrist is revealed

(Pre-Trib Rapture Is Gone)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Journeyman]

Have you read the verses on the 2 witnesses?
Let's look at them.
Rev 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1) the fire coming from their mouths kills heathens
2) the disciples thought as you do,to have God kill their enemies.
Jesus said "you know not what Spirit you are of".
I mean how could you possibly reframe the clear written word of God?


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

3) there it is. They are not protected when the ac kills them.
Neither they,or the disciples, or the billions left behind from the rapture are protected.
The devil did and will kill them all.(except John)

The 144k are CHRISTIANS ,and yet need an extra seal to prevent the flying scorpions from stinging them.

You do not understand martyrdom is a separate issue of "no protection"
Yes we enjoy passive protection.
Yes we can call down extra protection.
Yes there is NO PROTECTION in martyrdom.

Once you understand those 3 dynamics you can intelligently discuss "protection"

But rev 11 is not in need of reframing.

No rain is comparable to no understanding. I'm not the one arguing in favor of killing our enemies. And I understand martyrdom very well. In fact, I'm under no delusion that God poured out his wrath on his Son. But in case you do believe that heresy. then it is you who doesn't understand the martyrdom of Christ and the church.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes. Yes they are. But they are NOT Christian. The Bride is the Church. The Church has by now been removed. The Church is a phenomenon that had a precise beginning point (Pentecost) and precise ending point....the Rapture.

So many today just don't get it.

The gentile bride is the church,but also has messianic jews as members.
Ruth is the example.

The 144k follow christ and are therefore born again christians.
They follow the lamb. Therefore are disciples/christians.

But yes there is a distinction.

A bit of splitting hairs.
I think we basically agree.

 

[bud62]

Why only 1260 years? Are old and New Testament rule in the same time?
If any hurt them, it will kill by fire from their mouth

Is old and New Testament kill people by fire from their mouth?
Rev 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

READ THE BIBLE AND SEE HOW GOD IS GOING TO DESTORY THE WICKED.
A beast in the BIBLE is A nation, This was France , In the revolution, when they try to do Away with the BIBLE, and even had A 10 day week, trying to change every thing that GOD had setup IN GOD'S WORD, A day is A year in prophecy, SO this is 3 & haft years , And this is how long, France done away with the BIBLE, GOD bless as GOD sees GOOD,

 

[Absolutely]

No rain is comparable to no understanding. I'm not the one arguing in favor of killing our enemies. And I understand martyrdom very well. In fact, I'm under no delusion that God poured out his wrath on his Son. But in case you do believe that heresy. then it is you who doesn't understand the martyrdom of Christ and the church.

Here is your thinking;

""Your belief that two future prophets will kill their enemies is contrary to the teachings of Jesus, so your interpretation is wrong.""

Your thoughts are in conflict with the word.

You are at a crossroad big time.

For some reason you resist such a no brainer.
Then proceed to Streisand the the dynamic into a staircase of nonsense.

THEY (THE 144K) DESTROY THEIR ENEMIES.
Such a vivid clear declaration of Gods word.

.......but you have some need of reframing a dangerous book.

 

[Truth7t7]

No rain is comparable to no understanding. I'm not the one arguing in favor of killing our enemies. And I understand martyrdom very well. In fact, I'm under no delusion that God poured out his wrath on his Son. But in case you do believe that heresy. then it is you who doesn't understand the martyrdom of Christ and the church.

I suspect you also deny that Moses/Aaron and the plagues of Egypt were literal historical events?

 

[Truth7t7]

READ THE BIBLE AND SEE HOW GOD IS GOING TO DESTORY THE WICKED.
A beast in the BIBLE is A nation, This was France , In the revolution, when they try to do Away with the BIBLE, and even had A 10 day week, trying to change every thing that GOD had setup IN GOD'S WORD, A day is A year in prophecy, SO this is 3 & haft years , And this is how long, France done away with the BIBLE, GOD bless as GOD sees GOOD,

Bud I disagree that day is a literal year

I also disagree that France is symbolic of the Beast

Scripture teaches that (The Beast) will be a future literal human man, and he will be killed, and his body will be thrown into the eternal flame.

Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Truth7t7]

The gentile bride is the church,but also has messianic jews as members.

You falsely create (Two Peoples Of God) in Dual Covenant Theology

There isnt Jew or Gentile, all that are saved equals (Church)

You falsely teach of a (Gentile) Church and Messianic Church (Jew)

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[cv5]

The gentile bride is the church,but also has messianic jews as members.
Ruth is the example.

The 144k follow christ and are therefore born again christians.
They follow the lamb. Therefore are disciples/christians.

But yes there is a distinction.

A bit of splitting hairs.
I think we basically agree.

IMO......the better distinction would be redeemed messianic Jews. They are a NEW sort of a firstfruits of all redeemed Jews going foward. See post # 140. The term Church no longer exists, because strictly speaking the Church no longer exist on earth.

Just as Moses and Elijah (probably the two witnesses) were redeemed Jews so are these 144K......but they are still Jews they are not Christians.

Rev 14
These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure, these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. These have been redeemed out from men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Firstfruits of a redeemed Israel my friend......certainly not Christians.

 

[Truth7t7]

Firstfruits of a redeemed Israel my friend......certainly not Christians.

Pinocchio's nose is growing again

The 144,000 are preaching the everlasting gospel, in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and they aren't Christian's?

Now that's a big Pinocchio (FairyTale)

Revelation 14:3-7KJV
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[cv5]

You falsely create (Two Peoples Of God) in Dual Covenant Theology

There isnt Jew or Gentile, all that are saved equals (Church)

You falsely teach of a (Gentile) Church and Messianic Church (Jew)

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

True..... there is no distinction during the Church age. But there will be after the Rapture. The Jew will always be a Jew and gentile will always be a gentile believing or not.

Read the following Scriptures to understand the differentiation and relationship between Jew and gentile in the millennium. Perfect equality? I think not. The gentiles will be serving the Jews who will be serving the Lord as priests to the gentile nations. Which of course was God's original plan for Israel to begin with.

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/60-16.htm
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/61-5.htm
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/60-16.htm

Can you begin to understand your error now? I hope so.

 

[Truth7t7]

True..... there is no distinction during the Church age. But there will be after the Rapture. The Jew will always be a Jew and gentile will always be a gentile believing or not.

Read the following Scriptures to understand the differentiation and relationship between Jew and gentile in the millennium. Perfect equality? I think not. The gentiles will be serving the Jews who will be serving the Lord as priests to the gentile nations. Which of course was God's original plan for Israel to begin with.

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/60-16.htm
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/61-5.htm
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/60-16.htm

Can you begin to understand your error now? I hope so.

There is neither Jew Nor Gentile, and there wont be a future Millennium

Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation in fire and Final judgement, dissolving this earth by his fire.

The teaching of a future Millennium on this earth, is a false Zionist teaching of man.

Millennium: Jesus hanging out on a earthly throne for 1,000 years, watching Jews perform blood animal sacrifice in a Jerusalem temple, while humans are dying around him?

Jesus Christ The Funeral Director?

Real Big Smiles!

 

[Journeyman]

Yes it is true this is already in the church those who are Christian by title vs Christian by heart, sound doctrine vs doctrine of the devil false teachers false prophets false miracle and holy spirit power claiming it is awful how the enemy has slipped into the church

to be honest this does seem to present the falling away but I still wonder if perhaps there is something deeper what does the falling away speak of exactly when it relates to this day coming because this is not anything new

It speaks to a departure from what Jesus taught, such as the damnable heresy of God punishing or pouring out his wrath on his Son.