Rev 11, The (Two Witnesses) Will Rule The Tribulation By Plagues And God's Judgement

[Journeyman]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by it will happen to us, what happened with Jews was because they rebelled against God and all that transpires in the tribulation is about God dealing his judgement and wrath on the world isn't it?

Unless I am misunderstanding you

Paul was speaking of an apostasy from within the church, a departure from the truth. It isn't plausible that people do an immediate about face, but it does make sense when deception creeps in over time until the truth is obscured. Besides this, the world doesnt need a strong delusion, because they're deluded already.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes I do believe the plagues on Egypt were literal events, but God brings catastrophic events for the purpose of producing repentance .

You believe the plagues of Egypt were literal, but you deny the plagues as seen in Revelation are literal

You believe Elijah called down literal fire, but deny that the (Two Witnesses) seen in Rev 11 are literal bringing fire.

We will disagree, just as the plagues and fire were literal in history, they will be literal in the future.

(Historicism) is false teaching, and add to it the (Preterist) claims of 1st century fulfillment in Daniel's AOD, and Great Tribulation that (Historicis) is on the same footing as Dispensationalism, both being teachings in error.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes I do believe the plagues on Egypt were literal events, but God brings catastrophic events for the purpose of producing repentance .

You mean like God bringing plagues below to bring repentance?

Revelation 16:9-11KJV
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Truth7t7]

And it also doesn't say the church in general will see the antichrist present it says that this day will not come until there is a falling away

We Will Disagree

Your claim is false again,

1.) 2 Thess 2:3 speaks directly to the church today, all scripture (The Church Will See The Antichrist Revealed)

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

2.) 2 Thess 2:3 has two conditions to be met (Apostasy) departure from the faith, and The Man Of Sin Revealed.

Your claim is (False) as the words were written from the Apostles to the Church of the Thessalonians, the (You) seen below is the Church.

1 Thessalonians 1:1KJV
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Truth7t7]

You're missing the point my friend. It doesn't matter whether millions of believers are persecuted, or just one believer. It doesn't matter whether the final beast does the persecuting, or a beast from the past. What matters is the revelation of Jesus Christ and believers from every period knew him,

for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Mt.5:12

Your missing the point my friend

The Man Of Sin/The Beast seen below hasn't been revealed anytime in history, nor has Jesus Christ destroyed this figure by the brightness of his second coming, this literal figure hasnt been seen anytime in history, this is a future event, unfulfilled.

Historicism denies a future Man of Sin/The Beast, as they falselyteach this took place in the 1st century, Historism is wrong in false teaching.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[oyster67]

Yes the are witnessing. And they are Israelites being sons of Jacob. The question is: where is the Church why are they not mentioned anywhere past ch3 and why has the commission of preaching now being accomplished by fleshly Israelites.

The Raptured Church is in Heaven attending the marriage supper at this time.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Raptured Church is in Heaven attending the marriage supper at this time.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in the scripture, it's the invention of John N. Darby 1850's from the Plymouth Brethren, and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield 1909 in his reference bible.

 

[ToastAndTea]

The purpose of the two witnesses is to preach the gospel to what remains of the elect, I think.

They will be killed by the antichrist but they will be resurrected by Jesus.

I think its important not go above and beyond scripture here.

 

[Journeyman]

You believe the plagues of Egypt were literal, but you deny the plagues as seen in Revelation are literal

You believe Elijah called down literal fire, but deny that the (Two Witnesses) seen in Rev 11 are literal bringing fire.

We will disagree, just as the plagues and fire were literal in history, they will be literal in the future.

(Historicism) is false teaching, and add to it the (Preterist) claims of 1st century fulfillment in Daniel's AOD, and Great Tribulation that (Historicis) is on the same footing as Dispensationalism, both being teachings in error.

I just told you what I believe, but you didn't deal with it. The OT is spiritually discerned, which is why the so called scholars didn't know the Lord when he appeared on earth.

Your belief that two future prophets will kill their enemies is contrary to the teachings of Jesus, so your interpretation is wrong.

 

[Journeyman]

You mean like God bringing plagues below to bring repentance?

Revelation 16:9-11KJV
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Yes, exactly like that, because the fact that repentance is even mentioned in connection with plagues teaches us that this was God's purpose in sending them.

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev.11:13

But the number of people who repented isn't the point.

 

[Journeyman]

Your missing the point my friend

The Man Of Sin/The Beast seen below hasn't been revealed anytime in history, nor has Jesus Christ destroyed this figure by the brightness of his second coming, this literal figure hasnt been seen anytime in history, this is a future event, unfulfilled.

Historicism denies a future Man of Sin/The Beast, as they falselyteach this took place in the 1st century, Historism is wrong in false teaching.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And since people who ignore God make themselves little gods and are nothing more than men of sin and end up in the same place as any sinner who proclaims himself God (Satan for instance), the identity of any individual really doesn't matter.

What does matter is knowing the Lord.

 

[cv5]

The Raptured Church is in Heaven attending the marriage supper at this time.

Actually the betrothal was consummated in chapters 4 and 5. The marriage supper per se occurs in Revelation chapter 19. All the guests are invited Old Testament saints tribulation saints everybody.

Rev 19:6-9
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

 

[Absolutely]

God's people are protected by the Lord himself. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is just that. The unveiling of our Lord to the lost. It's Christ who said his followers are invulnerable. Ignore his teaching if you want.

Have you read the verses on the 2 witnesses?
Let's look at them.
Rev 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1) the fire coming from their mouths kills heathens
2) the disciples thought as you do,to have God kill their enemies.
Jesus said "you know not what Spirit you are of".
I mean how could you possibly reframe the clear written word of God?


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

3) there it is. They are not protected when the ac kills them.
Neither they,or the disciples, or the billions left behind from the rapture are protected.
The devil did and will kill them all.(except John)

The 144k are CHRISTIANS ,and yet need an extra seal to prevent the flying scorpions from stinging them.

You do not understand martyrdom is a separate issue of "no protection"
Yes we enjoy passive protection.
Yes we can call down extra protection.
Yes there is NO PROTECTION in martyrdom.

Once you understand those 3 dynamics you can intelligently discuss "protection"

But rev 11 is not in need of reframing.

 

[Absolutely]

Actually the betrothal was consummated in chapters 4 and 5. The marriage supper per se occurs in Revelation chapter 19. All the guests are invited Old Testament saints tribulation saints everybody.

Rev 19:6-9
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

The bride becomes the wife towards the end of the 7 yr gt.
As declared in rev 19

 

[Absolutely]

Well on one hand if it is speaking of a plague then it is obviously literal fire but if it is coming from their mouths I think it is not literal flames but the searing of the soul and heart that God's word does.
Not to mention he is our defender and always protects his own they would not have any need to protect themselves

Uh, no re read it.

The ac kills them, their is no protection at martyrdom.

But as you say it is literal fire.

But as you deny the bible that it comes from their mouths???
You can tell it to Jesus that he wrote it in error.

Interesting that several people have reframed the dynamics concerning the 2 witnesses.

 

[cv5]

Have you read the verses on the 2 witnesses?
Let's look at them.
Rev 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1) the fire coming from their mouths kills heathens
2) the disciples thought as you do,to have God kill their enemies.
Jesus said "you know not what Spirit you are of".
I mean how could you possibly reframe the clear written word of God?


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

3) there it is. They are not protected when the ac kills them.
Neither they,or the disciples, or the billions left behind from the rapture are protected.
The devil did and will kill them all.(except John)

The 144k are CHRISTIANS ,and yet need an extra seal to prevent the flying scorpions from stinging them.

You do not understand martyrdom is a separate issue of "no protection"
Yes we enjoy passive protection.
Yes we can call down extra protection.
Yes there is NO PROTECTION in martyrdom.

Once you understand those 3 dynamics you can intelligently discuss "protection"

But rev 11 is not in need of reframing.

The 144K are ethnic Israelites as are the two witnesses. There is no place in Scripture where individuals enumerated by Jacobs tribes are Christians. The point is that the ministry of preaching the gospel is now recommissioned to the Israelites. This was the ministry they abandon. This recommissioning is part of their redemption process. Furthermore it shall continue into the millennium.......Israelites will be preaching to the nations. There are only Jews and gentiles in the millennium.

There are only Israelites and gentiles during the tribulation period. Conversions among the gentiles will be taking place...... these are tribulation saints they are not the Church.

 

[cv5]

Nice quick summary here nothing complicated but brings forth the points....
You would do well to listen to this entire series. And throw this allegorical nonsense the window it was the biggest mistake the reformers ever made.

 

[Absolutely]

The 144K are ethnic Israelites as are the two witnesses. There is no place in Scripture where individuals enumerated by Jacobs tribes are Christians. The point is that the ministry of preaching the gospel is now recommissioned to the Israelites. This was the ministry they abandon. This recommissioning is part of their redemption process. Furthermore it shall continue into the millennium.......Israelites will be preaching to the nations. There are only Jews and gentiles in the millennium.

There are only Israelites and gentiles during the tribulation period. Conversions among the gentiles will be taking place...... these are tribulation saints they are not the Church.

The 144k are messianic jews.
It says "they follow the lamb wherever he goes.

They are disciples of christ.

 

[Absolutely]

Nice quick summary here nothing complicated but brings forth the points....
You would do well to listen to this entire series. And throw this allegorical nonsense the window it was the biggest mistake the reformers ever made.

I loves me some missler..
One of the late greats.

 

[cv5]

The 144k are messianic jews.
It says "they follow the lamb wherever he goes.

They are disciples of christ.

Yes. Yes they are. But they are NOT Christian. The Bride is the Church. The Church has by now been removed. The Church is a phenomenon that had a precise beginning point (Pentecost) and precise ending point....the Rapture.

So many today just don't get it.