Rev 11, The (Two Witnesses) Will Rule The Tribulation By Plagues And God's Judgement
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My friend, I would urge you to study this series. You have some very common errors in your eschatology. I am guessing this is due to erronious teaching at your Church.
Tragically I am calling it quits at the Church I was attending. Pastor admitted he was amillenialist. That is a heresy IMO. He swallowed the reformer errors hook line and sinker. IMO he thinks a lot of the OT are Jewish myths. He does NOT believe the fallen angels flood scenario. He emailed me a paper he wrote. Basically he opines that fallen angels were an intertestamental period myth. I am guessing he believes in the higher criticism garbage too.
BTW... his latest sermons betrayed his total failure in understanding the Scriptures. I instantly recognized this because...I do understand them.
Kicking Israel to the curb (willfuly) has its ramifications......BLINDNESS.
Tragically I am calling it quits at the Church I was attending. Pastor admitted he was amillenialist. That is a heresy IMO. He swallowed the reformer errors hook line and sinker. IMO he thinks a lot of the OT are Jewish myths. He does NOT believe the fallen angels flood scenario. He emailed me a paper he wrote. Basically he opines that fallen angels were an intertestamental period myth. I am guessing he believes in the higher criticism garbage too.
BTW... his latest sermons betrayed his total failure in understanding the Scriptures. I instantly recognized this because...I do understand them.
Kicking Israel to the curb (willfuly) has its ramifications......BLINDNESS.
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Rev 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Any man will hurt them must be kill with fire from his mouth. So the antichrist will not survive against them
I heard the 2 witnesses is before the antichrist in power.
When antichrist in power he will kill every body that not take the mark, How he able to hurt the 2 witnesses ?
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Any man will hurt them must be kill with fire from his mouth. So the antichrist will not survive against them
I heard the 2 witnesses is before the antichrist in power.
When antichrist in power he will kill every body that not take the mark, How he able to hurt the 2 witnesses ?
Yes it is true this is already in the church those who are Christian by title vs Christian by heart, sound doctrine vs doctrine of the devil false teachers false prophets false miracle and holy spirit power claiming it is awful how the enemy has slipped into the church
to be honest this does seem to present the falling away but I still wonder if perhaps there is something deeper what does the falling away speak of exactly when it relates to this day coming because this is not anything new
to be honest this does seem to present the falling away but I still wonder if perhaps there is something deeper what does the falling away speak of exactly when it relates to this day coming because this is not anything new
Yes but when he spoke of this it is a warning to not be decieved many claim the antichrist is this person or that person many claim Jesus is here or there in fact some people have the arrogance to claim to be him even today however it is a warning to not be decieved it never says that we the church will see him revealed does it?
... and a post to go along with this Post #87 ^ , I should add: (posted back in December) Post #290 (different thread)
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977
Hope the readers will consider the post at link. = )
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977
Hope the readers will consider the post at link. = )
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In my study of the chronology (of the events in Revelation), after the 2W ascend up to Heaven (which is associated with the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe events [see Rev8:13b]), then the 7th Trumpet is sounded shortly AFTER that, which Trumpet is associated with the "3rd Woe" (again, see Rev8:13b) and thereafter the "Vials" are poured out, and those seven angels which are described as "having the seven LAST plagues" [following the "plagues" that PRECEDE these] (i.e. distinct from the plagues that the 2W are said to "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will" 11:6)... and which "seven LAST plagues" also take SOME TIME to unfold upon the earth (before Christ's "RETURN" to the earth surrounding the Armageddon time-slot Rev19 [Rev16:14-16, etc])
In the last episode you falsely claimed 2 Thess 2:3 (Apostasia) wasnt an apostasy/falling away from truth, relating to the church, but a (departure) meaning a pre-trib rapture
Now you falsely claim the 144,000 aren't Christian's, 100% False!
These 144,000 are saved and sealed Christian believers, standing with the Lamb(Jesus Christ) that are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) in the death, burial, and resurrection?
And you claim they aren't Christian's, (Sick), and you know better!
Revelation 14:1-7KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Now you falsely claim the 144,000 aren't Christian's, 100% False!
These 144,000 are saved and sealed Christian believers, standing with the Lamb(Jesus Christ) that are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) in the death, burial, and resurrection?
And you claim they aren't Christian's, (Sick), and you know better!
Revelation 14:1-7KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
I disagree, the 7 Trumps and 7 Vials are parallel events that lead up to the Second coming
Many falsely teach the book of Revelation since chronological order (False),its parallel teachings of same events.
Rev Chapters 9-16-20 Exactly The same event of Satan being loosed, Same battle, in parallel teachings.
Many falsely teach the book of Revelation since chronological order (False),its parallel teachings of same events.
Rev Chapters 9-16-20 Exactly The same event of Satan being loosed, Same battle, in parallel teachings.
Dispensationalism's John N. Darby, C.I. Scofield, Dallas theological, Thomas Ice, Tim La Haye, Chuck Missler?
You push the (False Teachings) of those seen above in dispensationalism
You have promoted (Thomas Ice) and the false teaching that 2 Thess 2:3 and the Greek word (Apostasia) is a rapture of the Church to heaven, and not a falling away of the Church from truth in (Apostasy)
You go further to state the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-7 aren't Christian's, that are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) on the earth, in the death, burial, resurrection, and salvation in Jesus Christ
And you use the word (Error) in Eschatology?
You push the (False Teachings) of those seen above in dispensationalism
You have promoted (Thomas Ice) and the false teaching that 2 Thess 2:3 and the Greek word (Apostasia) is a rapture of the Church to heaven, and not a falling away of the Church from truth in (Apostasy)
You go further to state the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-7 aren't Christian's, that are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) on the earth, in the death, burial, resurrection, and salvation in Jesus Christ
And you use the word (Error) in Eschatology?
Dispensationalism (Falsely) teaches the (Two Witnesses) and (The Beast) are different time frames, (A Lie)
The two witnesses are given 1260 days Rev 11: 3 and the Antichrist 42 months Rev 13:5 this is the same time of 3.5 years, and the two witnesses will be before the Antichrist the complete time.
Dispensationalism falsely teaches that the book of Revelation is interpreted in chronological order, falsely trying to make two separate time frames totaling 7 years, (A Lie)
The book of Revelation is interpretated in parallel events in the same teaching and time frames.
Looking at Revelation 11:3-15 below, the two witnesses are in Jerusalem, (The Beast) is allowed to kill them when their testimony is finished, after 3.5 days they are raised to heaven before the world, as the final 3rd woe comes rapidly in the great earthquake and Rev 11:15 7th Trump in the Second Coming end of this world.
As you can see clearly below, the two witnesses will be present on earth before the Antichrist, to their death and raising,in the second coming on the very last day
It will be a complete (Remake) of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.
Dispensationalism Is A Lie!
Revelation 11:3-15KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The two witnesses are given 1260 days Rev 11: 3 and the Antichrist 42 months Rev 13:5 this is the same time of 3.5 years, and the two witnesses will be before the Antichrist the complete time.
Dispensationalism falsely teaches that the book of Revelation is interpreted in chronological order, falsely trying to make two separate time frames totaling 7 years, (A Lie)
The book of Revelation is interpretated in parallel events in the same teaching and time frames.
Looking at Revelation 11:3-15 below, the two witnesses are in Jerusalem, (The Beast) is allowed to kill them when their testimony is finished, after 3.5 days they are raised to heaven before the world, as the final 3rd woe comes rapidly in the great earthquake and Rev 11:15 7th Trump in the Second Coming end of this world.
As you can see clearly below, the two witnesses will be present on earth before the Antichrist, to their death and raising,in the second coming on the very last day
It will be a complete (Remake) of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.
Dispensationalism Is A Lie!
Revelation 11:3-15KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Your Claim Is (False)
The scripture below was written to the (Church),it was regarding the (Coming Of Jesus Christ) and the Church being gathered.
The scripture below teaches this coming of Jesus Christ and gathering wont take place until two conditions are met?
1. The Apostasy of the Church
2. The Revealing of the Man of Sin, (Antichrist)
The Church Will Be Present On Earth To Witness The Two Events, Basic, Clear, And Simple!
We Will Disagree, The Horse Is Dead.
(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The scripture below was written to the (Church),it was regarding the (Coming Of Jesus Christ) and the Church being gathered.
The scripture below teaches this coming of Jesus Christ and gathering wont take place until two conditions are met?
1. The Apostasy of the Church
2. The Revealing of the Man of Sin, (Antichrist)
The Church Will Be Present On Earth To Witness The Two Events, Basic, Clear, And Simple!
We Will Disagree, The Horse Is Dead.
(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 9:1 [at 5th Trumpet] "a star fall from heaven unto the earth" is the same [point in time] as Revelation 12:9 - "9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out unto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
That point in time is mid-trib (with 1260 days remaining to end of trib), at the FIRST [of the 3 (see Rev8:13b)] "woe [unto the earth]" Rev12:12, where it says of the devil, "having great wrath because he knoweth that he hath a short [G3641 oligon] time [G2540 kairon]" (which speaks of the second half of the trib and its ending)
That point in time is mid-trib (with 1260 days remaining to end of trib), at the FIRST [of the 3 (see Rev8:13b)] "woe [unto the earth]" Rev12:12, where it says of the devil, "having great wrath because he knoweth that he hath a short [G3641 oligon] time [G2540 kairon]" (which speaks of the second half of the trib and its ending)
I disagree, as seen below, the 6th Trump and 6th Vial are the same River Euphrates, In the same time frame of Satan being loosed, same battle in (Parallel) teachings.
The 7th Trump 7th Vial Is The End!
It Is Done, He Shall Reign For Ever And Ever!
Revelation 9:13-14KJV
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:12KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
The 7th Trump 7th Vial Is The End!
It Is Done, He Shall Reign For Ever And Ever!
Revelation 9:13-14KJV
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:12KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Yeah you keep saying my claim is false but and yet you have not shown any real evidence of your own claim. Again as I have said many times it is important to understand who was being spoken to the context in which it was being spoken and understanding the distinction within scripture or are we not taught to rightly divide?
You use a part of this book but if you read the entire book you can see the whole picture not jkust a part you cherry pick to makje it say what you want, if you read the entire book he was clearly speaking to this particular church because even back then they waited and watched for all these things in the book of revelations there are also seven churches specifically being spoken to.
Honestly it doesn't matter to me whether you or I are right in our understanding as I know that debates such as this has no concluding stand point but I do however have issue with your false accusations of me.
In our debates you accuse me of following some people I have never heard you keep saying my claim is false but your entire bases of your point is based ont he interpretation of who he was speaking to which in of itself is not a very solid foundation to stand on but even 2 thessolonians is not near enough to prove your or my claim because we are only using part of the entire picture
I have told you and many others many times before the bible is like an onion or the earths crust it has many layers and it is also like a spider web each verse in one way or another connects to another however this part I add if you see the bible as a painted picture of God's own design you also have to conclude that it is not a blended picture it has different colors different aspects and lighting
Doy uo want to know how and why I came to understand dispensation? I am an artist and a writer at heart as both an artist and writer you learn how to see and understand how things are used in both art and words the strength and weakness the contrast what goes and blends well together vs. what doesn't
When certain words or colors are placed incorrectly or seen from the wrong aspect they are weak and do not blend well but in both colors and words placing them in certain places and with certain colors or words makes the blend perfectly they fit together and work together in union to help create the bigger picture
I do not look att the bible with the same eyes I do not see mere words I see a giant painting I see a beautiful symphony of poetry and while yes I do have much to learn God used what I enjoy and am naturally good at to show me the understanding needed to view the scriptures with different eyes this is how the spirit works he will bring us to deeper realms and show us all truths but we also have to have a teachable spirit and heart that is willing to question our own views and beliefs if you want to prove your belief right then try to prove it wrong as if knowing nothing having no pre view or belief just a blank slate ready to be painted by him
You use a part of this book but if you read the entire book you can see the whole picture not jkust a part you cherry pick to makje it say what you want, if you read the entire book he was clearly speaking to this particular church because even back then they waited and watched for all these things in the book of revelations there are also seven churches specifically being spoken to.
Honestly it doesn't matter to me whether you or I are right in our understanding as I know that debates such as this has no concluding stand point but I do however have issue with your false accusations of me.
In our debates you accuse me of following some people I have never heard you keep saying my claim is false but your entire bases of your point is based ont he interpretation of who he was speaking to which in of itself is not a very solid foundation to stand on but even 2 thessolonians is not near enough to prove your or my claim because we are only using part of the entire picture
I have told you and many others many times before the bible is like an onion or the earths crust it has many layers and it is also like a spider web each verse in one way or another connects to another however this part I add if you see the bible as a painted picture of God's own design you also have to conclude that it is not a blended picture it has different colors different aspects and lighting
Doy uo want to know how and why I came to understand dispensation? I am an artist and a writer at heart as both an artist and writer you learn how to see and understand how things are used in both art and words the strength and weakness the contrast what goes and blends well together vs. what doesn't
When certain words or colors are placed incorrectly or seen from the wrong aspect they are weak and do not blend well but in both colors and words placing them in certain places and with certain colors or words makes the blend perfectly they fit together and work together in union to help create the bigger picture
I do not look att the bible with the same eyes I do not see mere words I see a giant painting I see a beautiful symphony of poetry and while yes I do have much to learn God used what I enjoy and am naturally good at to show me the understanding needed to view the scriptures with different eyes this is how the spirit works he will bring us to deeper realms and show us all truths but we also have to have a teachable spirit and heart that is willing to question our own views and beliefs if you want to prove your belief right then try to prove it wrong as if knowing nothing having no pre view or belief just a blank slate ready to be painted by him
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