When are we saved ?

[lenna]

I am calling them out. Just like I called a few calvinists out a few months ago.

If I do not call them out for doing the very thing the calvinists were doing, I am a hypocrite and just as guilty.

This was of seeing everything through calvinist glasses that these two have been putting on is unchristlike. And gives Christianity and this chatroom a bad name.

I think as a member of this chatroom, everyone should call out this kind of nonsense.

I means I guess I could just look oncefallen emails to keep reporting them. But what good would that do?

Paul did not think it wrong to call out peter when peter sinned, we should not be worried either

oh well that's good

you dah man

I just cannot take this all so seriously. I usually leave threads now that I see are going deep into doo doo. I used to stay and argue and try to make sense

now I realize if I have any sense, that is a waste of my time cause the same people say the same things in some other threads

oh I will still cry 'false' when the gospels or Acts or other books are declared non important or not applicable

but for me, that is worth a little arguing but even then, I stop after some time. pearls and all that

for the record and in my opinion, you have created a hornet's nest in this thread that did not really exist before you trotted in

OIC was responding but now he just cries foul with your encouragement and 'there there baby.'

I am not saying anything here I would not say in person

 

[lenna]

Paul did not think it wrong to call out peter when peter sinned, we should not be worried either

and Jesus used a whip for the money changers. and Paul wished certain men would just adjust what was in their underwear

And and and

do what you do for your own authenticity. that is what all those people named from scripture did

 

[lenna]

If I looked at just the Words. I could easily just ASSUME this person was a calvinist. Because they use these terms

However, those terms are in scripture. Thus they are not calvinist terms, the are Gods terms.

Our job is to determine which version this person believes

Does he believe in calvins view (double predestination. Regeneration before faith/justification, Chosen not based on free will but through no free will decision whatsoever

or does he believe the biblical view (predestined based on forknowledge to be conformed to the image of God. Regeneration after justification which is given based on faith in the work of God. Chosen based on free will. Gods grace is irresistible but at same time, Men have resisted in unbelief since adam. SO not totally IResistive, it is a free will decision.

After many posts after a few threads, and after many question. The person being accused of calvinism, REJECTS the calvinist view and accepts the free will biblical view.

This is my point. People see him use calvins terms, and automatically accuse him of calvinism. I have not only seen with this man but a few others.

That has to stop. On both sides.

and then goes back again and creates more double entendres

hey...you have him acquitted and the jury is still out on my end

sounds like the ability to make up one's own mind

you know, you might ask why people think his remarks are leaning towards Calvinism

I'm not going back and finding the posts where he states something that sounds the opposite of 'free will' or whatever you want to call it. I call it 'choice' since God uses the word choose throughout His word to us

nothing more to say about it really cause it is all there

 

[lenna]

I am mulling who to ignore further. i didn't appreciate being called obnoxious, so that was the tipper with Lena. Eleventh has been accusatory with me for a while now.

at your pleasure

that is what the ignore button is for

good for you

 

[lenna]

it would be nice if people just looked at what someone said and just looked at him and try to understand instead of assuming like some have been.

wouldn't it though. do as I say and not as I do applies here

again, you basically turned a conversation into a mini riot

you turned this thread...no one else

 

[EleventhHour]

oh well that's good

you dah man

I just cannot take this all so seriously. I usually leave threads now that I see are going deep into doo doo. I used to stay and argue and try to make sense

now I realize if I have any sense, that is a waste of my time cause the same people say the same things in some other threads

oh I will still cry 'false' when the gospels or Acts or other books are declared non important or not applicable

but for me, that is worth a little arguing but even then, I stop after some time. pearls and all that

for the record and in my opinion, you have created a hornet's nest in this thread that did not really exist before you trotted in

OIC was responding but now he just cries foul with your encouragement and 'there there baby.'

I am not saying anything here I would not say in person

You do have insight "lady" .. ... now I could state "my lady" like @Duskey but somehow that does not seem appropriate...haha and who knows what new set of accusations might fly around here at that point...

 

[lenna]

You do have insight "lady" .. ... now I could state "my lady" like @Duskey but somehow that does not seem appropriate...haha and who knows what new set of accusations might fly around here at that point...

haha

no to my lady

well, going to watch some tv and then retire to the bedchamber

have yourself a lovely evening in the great TO...do Torontonians call it TO also? we do where I am from...that awkward and anti English province known as Je me souviens

 

[EleventhHour]

haha

no to my lady

well, going to watch some tv and then retire to the bedchamber

have yourself a lovely evening in the great TO...do Torontonians call it TO also? we do where I am from...that awkward and anti English province known as Je me souviens

Just having fun after the stress in this thread.

Yes they do.. I love Quebec, the north is beautiful, Montreal, Quebec City ..but yes they are are quite anti English, I have an Italian last name so they are not so rough on me.

 

[soggykitten]

Best to stay away from Calvinism threads. I should have probably stayed away from this one.

But I did one on Elect based on the foreknowledge of God from Second Peter, and they thought that was Calvinistic. Funny, because that is the very words Peter used, and my interpretation of the passage was fully non-Calvinist. Nice talking to you.

I believe I've arrived at that decision regarding anything Calvinist. Though there are subjects that may appear to be Calvinism oriented while when considering the context of a passage that appears that way may not be so.
Personal attacks get in the way of constructive discussion.

Debate on a topic in my view should be as if that person offering their pov is speaking impersonally and to lead into understanding a third party or, an impersonal group. Even when quoting the person one is responding to.
Launching personal attacks, the ad hominem method, appears to me to be a distraction tactic intended to derail the subject because the one levying the AH is unable to do that.
I think level of maturity , physical age and/or time as a Christian in the word, is also a factor.

Then again, I've encountered some people off line that are incapable of speaking without cursing or using sarcasm. In short, don't discount the Ahole factor. Everyone needs a hobby and for that to occur in the aforementioned case they have to bring others down to that level in order to play.

 

[BenjaminN]

If its not you believing then that's not salvation through faith . And its not christianity.

Salvation is by grace .................................................................................... through God's gift of faith and for God's prepared good works.

God's gift of faith will materialise if He granted grace beforehand, not faith of my own working. Grace by God is the cause, and faith from God as well as good works prepared by God is the effect.

 

[BenjaminN]

Understanding the gospel can save (deliver) you as you sojourn here in this world, but understanding the gospel does not save (deliver) anyone eternally, it does, however, inform us as to how we have been delivered eternally.

If you understand the gospel, God's eternal grace was present since the beginning of time beforehand working in shaping your life to come, till its never ending in eternity. God saves man, not man himself - not because of something man does or studies and understands. God's eternal grace is the sole cause of man's salvation. If God's grace was absent, and we only had God's righteousness, none of us would be able to enter his presence, but by God's grace, he who receives it, is able to enter the presence of God. It is like a Judge in a court says, I will take the death penalty for you - but you say, no I can pay myself in some way - if you received through faith as a gift of the Judge as well, the Judge's gift of grace saves you from his righteousness.

 

[crossnote]

WHEN ARE WE SAVED?
For those who believe, it would be 2000 years ago on a bloody cross outside Jerusalem.

 

[OIC1965]

God draws all men. He calls all men to believe on the Son. He says "look and live". If you look and live, you have received the gift of salvation, if you don't, you have rejected the gift. In that way, men are called to believe, and some obey and some disobey. When we believe, we can say that we believed because God granted us to believe and called us to believe. In that sense, faith can be defined as answering the call of God. Does God call everyone? Yes, He commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. Does that mean that it was not granted to us by God? No. It was granted to us by God.

The fact that we can reject does not negate the fact that we believed because it was granted to us and the fact that we believed as a result of a call of God on us. God not only calls to ministry and service, first and more importantly He calls us to Salvation.

I believe because God called me. Do all answer the call? No. Does that mean that God's call of me was not an effectual call? No. It was an effectual call. It powerfully drew me.

 

[OIC1965]

In other words, God calls all men to believe, but only those who believe become the Called of God. Some people have confused the terms Elect and Called. The Elect are those who were foreknown before the foundation of the world and were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. What we become WHEN we believe is the CALLED (not the elect or the predestined as some have argued). GOD Elects first and then He calls. Foreknown, predestined, CALLED, justified, glorified.

The calling takes place after predestination and BEFORE justification, and it is the CALL TO SALVATION first and foremost. The call to service and ministry is a secondary calling. See 1 Corinthians 1:17-29 which shows that God choses AND calls men to salvation. Not my words, PAUL'S. Of course, the election is based on foreknowledge, as discussed elsewhere.

the fact that the call takes place BEFORE justification shows that it is the call to salvation, and therefore the CALLED are those who have answered the call to salvation. The Elect are those who were foreknown by God and chosen before the foundation of the earth. Ephesians 1. This is not calvinism, this is Bible.

 

[OIC1965]

Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'

1 Corinthians 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

THE CONTEXT IS ENTIRELY SALVIFIC, FOLKS

now IN THAT CONTEXT, take a look at how Paul uses the words caling and choosing.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Paul is talking about GOD CHOOSING in the context of salvation, fully in the context of salvation, and in NO OTHER CONTEXT.

 

[throughfaith]

Salvation is by grace .................................................................................... through God's gift of faith and for God's prepared good works.

God's gift of faith will materialise if He granted grace beforehand, not faith of my own working. Grace by God is the cause, and faith from God as well as good works prepared by God is the effect.

salvation by grace , simply is saying ' not by working.

 

[throughfaith]

It would be difficult to elect in eternity past if God didn't know the future. The two systems are contradictory. But he may well contradict himself, you never know.

But he doesn't ' elect ' anyone to be saved in eternity past . The bible never says this ,so its not an issue .

 

[throughfaith]

Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'

1 Corinthians 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

THE CONTEXT IS ENTIRELY SALVIFIC, FOLKS

now IN THAT CONTEXT, take a look at how Paul uses the words caling and choosing.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Paul is talking about GOD CHOOSING in the context of salvation, fully in the context of salvation, and in NO OTHER CONTEXT.

Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'

1 Corinthians 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

THE CONTEXT IS ENTIRELY SALVIFIC, FOLKS

now IN THAT CONTEXT, take a look at how Paul uses the words caling and choosing.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Paul is talking about GOD CHOOSING in the context of salvation, fully in the context of salvation, and in NO OTHER CONTEXT.

Only by having a presupposition ,could you ignore' it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.'
Any bible reader should simply see this and think " oh yeah ,thats it . We believe. And we know believing is ...erm believing. Through faith."
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3.27

 

[throughfaith]

Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'

1 Corinthians 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

THE CONTEXT IS ENTIRELY SALVIFIC, FOLKS

now IN THAT CONTEXT, take a look at how Paul uses the words caling and choosing.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Paul is talking about GOD CHOOSING in the context of salvation, fully in the context of salvation, and in NO OTHER CONTEXT.

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Chosen for what ? to do what ? Are you assuming " Chosen in eternity past to be saved " ? Why ? Does it say this ?

 

[throughfaith]

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Chosen for what ? to do what ? Are you assuming " Chosen in eternity past to be saved " ? Why ? Does it say this ?

You say ///Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'//// Begging the question .
Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's choosing . What has he chosen? Verse 21 . Who has he ' called ' Jews and Gentiles through the Gospel call . Then a vocational call . The Gospel is sent out to all . Not the mighty but God the gospel is for sinners . Gideon is a great example. Joanas, David . God chooses the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.
The main point about Corinthians is ' wisdom ' . Man will deem Gods wisdom foolishness if he holds to man's wisdom . Thats it .