Should wine be used for the Lord's Supper?

[UnitedWithChrist]

@UnitedWithChrist but in John 20:17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" 18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the LORD!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

The most significant message in history was entrusted to a WOMAN!

Correct, which is one of the reasons why we believe Scripture is inspired.

A woman would not ordinarily be considered a reliable witness, so the gospel writers wouldn't have recorded this, if they were committing a fraud. They would have used a man as the witness.

I am not sure what this pertains to, but I have said that adult men should not be taught by women. Actually, my concern is more with authority figures such as pastors. Women cannot be pastors.

Also, I think it is very unattractive for a woman to assume an aggressive stance toward men in matters of teaching. I would not listen to a woman Sunday school teacher as an adult male, for instance.

With regards to alcohol, it was a number of women who insisted that communion be observed with grape juice rather than wine. Women are not to rule the faith.

I'd also challenge you to consider the denominations which now ordain gay men and allow openly homosexual members in good standing. How many of them started with ordaining women?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Hello UnitedWithChrist,

First of all, I think either a substitute or real wine can be used. I personally use grape juice when I partake in my own home. Regarding which is used, the meaning behind wine is figurative of representing the Lord blood that was shed for the sins of many. Likewise, the bread is figurative of His body that was broken for us. For the latter, I use a cracker. The purpose is to simply remember the Lord's body that was broken for us and His blood that was shed for us.

Regarding Jesus creating alcohol, He did so at the wedding in Cana:

"Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone serves the fine wine first, and then the cheap wine after the guests are drunk. But you have saved the fine wine until now!”

So, it appears that Jesus did turn the water into literal wine, unless we think that people can get drunk on grape juice. Also, Paul told Timothy to stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of his stomach and his frequent illnesses.

I feel better with Scripture as the standard for observing communion.

The church I attend uses matzos and grape juice, though, and I'm stuck with that unless I want to go somewhere else. And, most of the other churches do it the same way, except Roman Catholics.

This is really related to the Methodists, who are considering ordaining homosexuals and marrying them, which is really ironic. They have problems with alcohol in communion, yet are confused on the Scriptural clarity about sexual immorality.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I was using the symbolic nature. Not the alcohol but the Yeast, it has been symbolic of sin since Moses.

It's also used as a symbol of the Kingdom of God, which spreads like leaven throughout the world.

So, leaven isn't always used as a symbol of sin.

 

[Mii]

Right..I mean, we are kind of stuck with the results of the insistence of self-righteous church ladies of the 1800's. That's why men should form doctrine, and not be led about by women.

This is a rather condescending statement.

For me there is something of a sweet spot where I let go and "let God". 1-2 glasses which equals 2-3 standard drinks.

When I exceed that, it's like I go into flesh mode. I don't really know how to explain it. I've had like 1-2 times where this has not been the case and it was just a lovely time with worship music and fire...I have gone LONG periods with no alcohol, it's just I get impatient and complacent at times. I've certainly tried to convince myself that it's alright and perfectly acceptable but I have been unable to spiritually rationalize it. I am aware of the myriad of verses. One I was not aware of one night when I was incredibly angry and combative privately is in Isaiah, which basically says it messed up the prophets sight. While I'm not completely sure that this applies I think it can dim your sight and cause you to see unclearly and gives your fleshly mind a chance to assert its own ideas.


but I just somehow get sad. Alcohol isn't a mental depressant, merely physical. So while I've heard that argument before there's more to it than that. Like I want to rejoice and take part in the Lord's revelry which based off this verse I don't think can occur in its fullness until the millennial reign.

Mt 26:29.

We take communion in remembrance but to feast with the Lord? I don't think it is the time for "feasting". It hurts because I've tried and one night on a long walk it kind of made sense to me that it's not the right time. Which is something of a lonely feeling.


I mean, I've had nights of "revelry" with non-believers but I just feel conviction and try to steer conversation toward the Lord so that feels like work. It's like I can't properly enjoy it. Some non-believers are open to the Lord and some are viciously opposed. I don't really understand when I get doors slammed in my face, where someone is not even intellectually open but anyway...

I don't think I've had a time where I could just have fun (whether with alcohol or not) where there wasn't this "lonely" feel. Somewhat mournful, with a shade of joy of the things to come.



I have had a bare minimum of alcohol experiences with believers. Like 1-2. The world seemingly gets darker, either that or I am further sanctified but I just don't think it's for now to enjoy excesses. Like at the wedding feast. It's not here yet

 

[Melach]

With regards to alcohol, it was a number of women who insisted that communion be observed with grape juice rather than wine. Women are not to rule the faith.

I'd also challenge you to consider the denominations which now ordain gay men and allow openly homosexual members in good standing. How many of them started with ordaining women?

is there some source on when the grape juice actually started?

i agree with you it always starts with ordaining women then after that its downhill slide. first its women ordination (violating scripture while claiming to follow it) and then they change music then they change the way church looks maybe remove pulpit and add some cool cafe environment with barstools and then they start compomising on doctrine and give short inspirational sermons about nothing and then comes the g** pandering. thats not a complicated verse to interpret but today people just dont like what it says so they invent all kinds of ways to get away from it. feminism/humanism/egalitarianism trumps bible in that case. its a new phenomena. i dare anyone to find this in church history no controversy like this exists.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This is a rather condescending statement.

For me there is something of a sweet spot where I let go and "let God". 1-2 glasses which equals 2-3 standard drinks.

When I exceed that, it's like I go into flesh mode. I don't really know how to explain it. I've had like 1-2 times where this has not been the case and it was just a lovely time with worship music and fire...I have gone LONG periods with no alcohol, it's just I get impatient and complacent at times. I've certainly tried to convince myself that it's alright and perfectly acceptable but I have been unable to spiritually rationalize it. I am aware of the myriad of verses. One I was not aware of one night when I was incredibly angry and combative privately is in Isaiah, which basically says it messed up the prophets sight. While I'm not completely sure that this applies I think it can dim your sight and cause you to see unclearly and gives your fleshly mind a chance to assert its own ideas.


but I just somehow get sad. Alcohol isn't a mental depressant, merely physical. So while I've heard that argument before there's more to it than that. Like I want to rejoice and take part in the Lord's revelry which based off this verse I don't think can occur in its fullness until the millennial reign.

Mt 26:29.

We take communion in remembrance but to feast with the Lord? I don't think it is the time for "feasting". It hurts because I've tried and one night on a long walk it kind of made sense to me that it's not the right time. Which is something of a lonely feeling.


I mean, I've had nights of "revelry" with non-believers but I just feel conviction and try to steer conversation toward the Lord so that feels like work. It's like I can't properly enjoy it. Some non-believers are open to the Lord and some are viciously opposed. I don't really understand when I get doors slammed in my face, where someone is not even intellectually open but anyway...

I don't think I've had a time where I could just have fun (whether with alcohol or not) where there wasn't this "lonely" feel. Somewhat mournful, with a shade of joy of the things to come.



I have had a bare minimum of alcohol experiences with believers. Like 1-2. The world seemingly gets darker, either that or I am further sanctified but I just don't think it's for now to enjoy excesses. Like at the wedding feast. It's not here yet

One pastor of my past said that it is ok to drink one, and then not finish the second one.

Check out the history of the temperance movement. It was started by a bunch of self righteous Methodist women and spread from there. Like I said, I'm not a big fan of women leadership.

And, if you notice, the churches which have women leadership eventually go toward liberalism, including approving of gay marriage.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

is there some source on when the grape juice actually started?

i agree with you it always starts with ordaining women then after that its downhill slide. first its women ordination (violating scripture while claiming to follow it) and then they change music then they change the way church looks maybe remove pulpit and add some cool cafe environment with barstools and then they start compomising on doctrine and give short inspirational sermons about nothing and then comes the g** pandering

Yeah, I posted a link on this in a previous post.

 

[Melach]

Yeah, I posted a link on this in a previous post.

sorry i will go look at it now. i just jumped to last page i often do that

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, I am a complimentarian. I believe that women do some jobs in the church better than men, but not leadership positions, especially the pastor.

For instance, they are typically much better at instructing younger people. I have no issue with women instructing boys or girls.

 

[Mii]

Also, Paul told Timothy to stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of his stomach and his frequent illnesses.

I have heard some argue that the water was almost non-potable at the time and cheap watered down alcohol would in theory help with disinfecting because it would be doubtful that wine makers would be producing wine with the stuff in canals and other cesspits.

and ofc, the mild health benefits (such as with dark chocolate).

I'm not saying you are suggesting it was a legalism issue but I have heard people use that as an argument against sobriety and it's rather weak. Just throwing that out there for the internet as a whole

 

[Mii]

By the way, I am a complimentarian. I believe that women do some jobs in the church better than men, but not leadership positions, especially the pastor.

For instance, they are typically much better at instructing younger people. I have no issue with women instructing boys or girls.

Well, I am NOT ready to talk about the whole women pastoring thing. It is unclear to me at present. It's definitely something that's been brought to my attention during driving (which is something like a meditative activity for me).

I am aware of the scripture and I see the merits on both sides. Particularly when people bring up mighty women that were used of the Lord. Some women are gifted in ways that others are not. The same is true of men.

A woman's spiritual strength and sound counsel should not be discounted but the dialogue needs to much more open to combat sexism and all the things liberal christianity purports before I am willing to state for sure.

Feminism, sexism, and false "doctrinisms" must be separated prior. I only know that I love hearing wives of pastors present their perspectives and what they do in the church. I find it pretty cool to hear about godly relationships and their "better halves" and what they do to support their husbands and the body.

 

[Ghoti2]

Personally, I think it is mainly simply Religious Legalists who get hooked-up over what is used for Communion. While on the road, a fair ways from civilization, my wife and I once used Ritz Crackers and Pepsi because we had nothing else. I kinda doubt God fell off His throne that morning.

 

[John146]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

Grape juice is wine, good wine, not spoiled, fermented wine.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Grape juice is wine, good wine, not spoiled, fermented wine.

OK..I can see which folks take the Bible serious, and which ones are bound in tradition

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well, I am NOT ready to talk about the whole women pastoring thing. It is unclear to me at present. It's definitely something that's been brought to my attention during driving (which is something like a meditative activity for me).

I am aware of the scripture and I see the merits on both sides. Particularly when people bring up mighty women that were used of the Lord. Some women are gifted in ways that others are not. The same is true of men.

A woman's spiritual strength and sound counsel should not be discounted but the dialogue needs to much more open to combat sexism and all the things liberal christianity purports before I am willing to state for sure.

Feminism, sexism, and false "doctrinisms" must be separated prior. I only know that I love hearing wives of pastors present their perspectives and what they do in the church. I find it pretty cool to hear about godly relationships and their "better halves" and what they do to support their husbands and the body.

I view the pastor and his wife as a team...but women are not to be pastors in the church.

By the way, a more careful exegesis reveals facts about some women leaders. For instance, the book of Judges shows the decay of leadership within Israel. The idea is that no judge was really capable of leading Israel, once God was abandoned as their leader.

The judge prior to Deborah had a Gentile name, so he probably wasn't even an Israelite. Deborah's female leadership was not a positive thing. It demonstrated that Israel's men were spineless. So, we have a Gentile judge and then a woman judge. Not impressive.

In fact the appropriate male under Deborah refused to step up and fight against Israel's enemies like he should have, if remember right, and God delivered the enemy into the hands of a woman, who drove a stake through his head while he slept.

Yet those who promote female leadership fail to talk about these issues when discussing Deborah.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well, I am NOT ready to talk about the whole women pastoring thing. It is unclear to me at present. It's definitely something that's been brought to my attention during driving (which is something like a meditative activity for me).

I am aware of the scripture and I see the merits on both sides. Particularly when people bring up mighty women that were used of the Lord. Some women are gifted in ways that others are not. The same is true of men.

A woman's spiritual strength and sound counsel should not be discounted but the dialogue needs to much more open to combat sexism and all the things liberal christianity purports before I am willing to state for sure.

Feminism, sexism, and false "doctrinisms" must be separated prior. I only know that I love hearing wives of pastors present their perspectives and what they do in the church. I find it pretty cool to hear about godly relationships and their "better halves" and what they do to support their husbands and the body.

I have a lady friend who is excellent in prayer, for example...when we talk, she often leads me in prayer. I will let her do that

I am not into dominating women types who feel qualified to assert themselves over me though. It's not attractive to me.

I went to one church which had a woman pastor. I was backslidden at the time and must have lost my spiritual senses. I am not sure why in the world I attended there for a while.

 

[Laish]

I say wine . It’s what the Lord drank when He said Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
It’s that simple. Also it’s quite a simple observance taking in to consideration what was done for us .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Ghoti2]

Am I wrong in remembering that unrefrigerated grape juice went bad (turned into wine) within a matter of days.... and that even that wine didn't last too long until the fermenting process further turned it into vinegar?

 

[Mii]

I view the pastor and his wife as a team...but women are not to be pastors in the church.

By the way, a more careful exegesis reveals facts about some women leaders. For instance, the book of Judges shows the decay of leadership within Israel. The idea is that no judge was really capable of leading Israel, once God was abandoned as their leader.

The judge prior to Deborah had a Gentile name, so he probably wasn't even an Israelite. Deborah's female leadership was not a positive thing. It demonstrated that Israel's men were spineless. So, we have a Gentile judge and then a woman judge. Not impressive.

In fact the appropriate male under Deborah refused to step up and fight against Israel's enemies like he should have, if remember right, and God delivered the enemy into the hands of a woman, who drove a stake through his head while he slept.

Yet those who promote female leadership fail to talk about these issues when discussing Deborah.

well the argument I've heard is actually what is presented by you. That men are not stepping up to the plate and therefore the Lord will raise up an alternate as a testimony. Weak men is a problem as well, as I'm sure you agree in our time.



well, not you per se, but your assessment of the judge. So it is interesting. I think there is a bit of demasculinization going on in the church but I'm not sure precisely where that's coming from.


I have a step-mother whose sister is a methodist minister. It came to my mind out of the blue when thinking about this issue some time ago. I do think the helper role as stated in Genesis must be factored in strongly.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Have you never drank alcohol without getting intoxicated like at a dinner especially? Most people have a liver enzyme named Alcohol Dehydrogenase. Alcohol dehydrogenases That help direct the body to metabolize alcohol properly. They are a class of zinc enzymes which catalyze the oxidation of primary and secondary alcohols to the corresponding aldehyde or ketone by the transfer of a hydride anion to NAD+ with release of a proton. From: Biological Inorganic Chemistry.

Lack of which makes people more susceptible to intoxication. Intoxication means; self poisoned. Normal people can metabolize alcohol below a toxic level. The time and ammount conumed varies with each individual,

yes I have drank and not got drunk before but alcohol Is not something to drink and chance making a mockery out of communion because of desire to feel good doing the communion.
GOD looks at the heart/motivation so then It's not so much what Is being drank but It's are you really remembering and respecting the sacrifice of JESUS In truth.