Should wine be used for the Lord's Supper?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

 

[Magenta]

Grape juice is not plainly unscriptural as you claim, since it is “the fruit of the vine” (Matt 26:29) and the product of the crushing of grapes. God looks at the heart, unlike you who looks down your nose. The lack of fermentation does not disqualify it from being the fruit of the vine. "The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Grape juice is not plainly unscriptural as you claim, since it is “the fruit of the vine” (Matt 26:29) and the product of the crushing of grapes. God looks at the heart, unlike you who looks down your nose. The lack of fermentation does not disqualify it from being the fruit of the vine. "The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Here's the deal:

Drinking a small amount of wine produces a bit of a warm feeling. Grape juice doesn't produce this effect.

Besides, if you are using one verse to support a practice, when there are many more verses that refer to wine, then isn't that being disingenuous?

Additionally, I believe we have formed our practices based on tradition rather than the word of God.

It isn't a big deal to me, but was Passover observed with wine, according to the vast preponderance of passages, or not?

"Fruit of the vine" does not exclude wine. However, wine excludes simple grape juice.

 

[Magenta]

Here's the deal:

Drinking a small amount of wine produces a bit of a warm feeling. Grape juice doesn't produce this effect.

Besides, if you are using one verse to support a practice, when there are many more verses that refer to wine, then isn't that being disingenuous?

Additionally, I believe we have formed our practices based on tradition rather than the word of God.

It isn't a big deal to me, but was Passover observed with wine, according to the vast preponderance of passages, or not?

"Fruit of the vine" does not exclude wine. However, wine excludes simple grape juice.

I gave a verse to show that God's ways are not man's ways. There are multiple verses to support that view which you wish to pretend do not exist while promoting the fact that wine produces a bit of a warm feeling which has nothing to do with partaking of the Lord's supper.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Grape juice is not plainly unscriptural as you claim, since it is “the fruit of the vine” (Matt 26:29) and the product of the crushing of grapes. God looks at the heart, unlike you who looks down your nose. The lack of fermentation does not disqualify it from being the fruit of the vine. "The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

But fruit of the vine was not Welch’s grape juice but wine. And yes, every communion I’ve been blessed to partake of has used, yep, you guessed it, Welch’s grape juice.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

Didn’t this get it’s legs around the time of prohibition?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Didn’t this get it’s legs around the time of prohibition?

That's my guess.

Granted, some men are irresponsible with alcohol, but communion is only a thimble of wine.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'd have to be a biblical illiterate to claim the norm wasn't wine, because, in fact, some were getting drunk at the Lord's table.

Besides that, apparently a full meal was involved. And a common cup.

So, that's another issue.

I've been a part of one church that accompanied communion with a full meal.

I guess in our mass production, assembly line society that's what passes for communion though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

But fruit of the vine was not Welch’s grape juice but wine. And yes, every communion I’ve been blessed to partake of has used, yep, you guessed it, Welch’s grape juice.

I found an article on this.

Apparently it was directly related to prohibition, and the insistence of Methodist women who were involved in the prohibition movement that wine was unacceptable.

Before that, some were only drinking water for communion because they were too holy to drink wine.

http://www.umc.org/who-we-are/methodist-history-controversy-communion-and-welchs-grape-juice

It is funny how some people think they are more holy than Jesus.

 

[JaumeJ]

The Blood of our Savior represents life, and in Jesus, Yeshua, it is life everlasting.

He is the Bread from Heaven (born in the house of Bread for this is the translation of Bethlehem.)

Drinking His blood we live life as did He, as best we are given.

Reading His Word we are sustained and filled, for His Word is food indeed.

These are the true acts of doing this in memory of Jesus while thae actual breaking of breaqd is a symbolic ritual to demonstrate our faith, our belief, in all He has done for each of us.

 

[posthuman]

I'd have to be a biblical illiterate to claim the norm wasn't wine, because, in fact, some were getting drunk at the Lord's table.

Besides that, apparently a full meal was involved. And a common cup.

So, that's another issue.

I've been a part of one church that accompanied communion with a full meal.

I guess in our mass production, assembly line society that's what passes for communion though.

the way 1 Corinthians 11 reads, to me, a wednesday-night-fellowship-pot-luck-supper is a lot closer to what's being described than the common, ritualized tiny bite of cracker and sip of ((whatever)) ceremony.
have said this for quite a long time - but i don't refuse to take part.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I gave a verse to show that God's ways are not man's ways. There are multiple verses to support that view which you wish to pretend do not exist while promoting the fact that wine produces a bit of a warm feeling which has nothing to do with partaking of the Lord's supper.

My position is that communion has overtones concerning union with Christ, and the slight alcohol creates a social environment which is reminiscent of this.

I don't believe that the amount of alcohol was just a thimble anyways.

God uses various ordinances like this to engage the senses and to preach the gospel through sensory means.

I know it's difficult for mass production, assembly line Christians to comprehend the original intentions, but I believe there was a reason behind the use of a small amount of alcohol at the LORD's supper.

 

[Hevosmies]

Its crazy I was just talking about this topic with sister Angela in PM! Ask Angela if you dont believe me!

My answer: YES it should be, and I agree we are going with baptist traditions here rather than what the Church has HISTORICALLY done.

In short the points that I made for wine are:
- Jews have always and still do enjoy WINE during Pesach
-The Church has always done it historically until yesterday when they changed it, going along with the prohibition era etc.
-Melchizedek which serves as a PICTURE and TYPE of Christ brought forth WINE and BREAD, not grape juice and bread. And yes the word is WINE in the hebrew not JUICE. Go check it out if y'all dont believe me.

 

[Hevosmies]

My position is that communion has overtones concerning union with Christ, and the slight alcohol creates a social environment which is reminiscent of this.

I don't believe that the amount of alcohol was just a thimble anyways.

God uses various ordinances like this to engage the senses and to preach the gospel through sensory means.

I know it's difficult for mass production, assembly line Christians to comprehend the original intentions, but I believe there was a reason behind the use of a small amount of alcohol at the LORD's supper.

The reason was when you consume a drink of wine you feel the warmth. Its symbolic of the blood of Christ. POWERFUL to save.

The evidence I provided above should be a SEALED DEAL already. I aint dumb enough to think churches are gonna change it though, its probably gonna end up being coca cola and baguettes one of these days WHO KNOWS whats coming down the pipe in 2019.

OH YEAH btw before anyone says it: I AM NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC, never have been. Im an independent BAPTIST and my Church does the juice gimmick as well, IT IS WHAT IT IS.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

the way 1 Corinthians 11 reads, to me, a wednesday-night-fellowship-pot-luck-supper is a lot closer to what's being described than the common, ritualized tiny bite of cracker and sip of ((whatever)) ceremony.
have said this for quite a long time - but i don't refuse to take part.

Right..I mean, we are kind of stuck with the results of the insistence of self-righteous church ladies of the 1800's. That's why men should form doctrine, and not be led about by women.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Its crazy I was just talking about this topic with sister Angela in PM! Ask Angela if you dont believe me!

My answer: YES it should be, and I agree we are going with baptist traditions here rather than what the Church has HISTORICALLY done.

In short the points that I made for wine are:
- Jews have always and still do enjoy WINE during Pesach
-The Church has always done it historically until yesterday when they changed it, going along with the prohibition era etc.
-Melchizedek which serves as a PICTURE and TYPE of Christ brought forth WINE and BREAD, not grape juice and bread. And yes the word is WINE in the hebrew not JUICE. Go check it out if y'all dont believe me.

By the way, I know Angela

The reason was when you consume a drink of wine you feel the warmth. Its symbolic of the blood of Christ. POWERFUL to save.

The evidence I provided above should be a SEALED DEAL already. I aint dumb enough to think churches are gonna change it though, its probably gonna end up being coca cola and baguettes one of these days WHO KNOWS whats coming down the pipe in 2019.

OH YEAH btw before anyone says it: I AM NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC, never have been. Im an independent BAPTIST and my Church does the juice gimmick as well, IT IS WHAT IT IS.

I used to be part of a cultic group, and they were sticklers for details like this, so they used wine.

But, it was only a thimble. I think it should be a full glass, and accompanied by a fellowship meal.

You couldn't do that in megachurches where most of the people don't attend small groups, though.

I attended one small house church group and they had a meal every other week instead of services. I don't remember them ever taking communion, but maybe they did. They were Wesleyans though, so I doubt if it would have included a glass of wine.

 

[posthuman]

Grape juice is not plainly unscriptural as you claim, since it is “the fruit of the vine” (Matt 26:29) and the product of the crushing of grapes. God looks at the heart, unlike you who looks down your nose. The lack of fermentation does not disqualify it from being the fruit of the vine. "The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

for sure any product made of grapes is technically 'fruit of the vine'
including grape jelly!



but as UWC points out:

I'd have to be a biblical illiterate to claim the norm wasn't wine, because, in fact, some were getting drunk at the Lord's table.

1 Corinthians 11:21 clearly describes people selfishly getting drunk when they are coming together for communion / the Lord's supper. you simply can't get drunk on non-alcoholic beverages; it's impossible. the same argument is applicable in John ch. 2 when He turns water into wine - there is clearly alcohol involved. the apology is made, that in that era wines were not as strong - but that just makes the case that they had to have drank so much more of it to have become 'well drunk' !

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Grape juice is not plainly unscriptural as you claim, since it is “the fruit of the vine” (Matt 26:29) and the product of the crushing of grapes. God looks at the heart, unlike you who looks down your nose. The lack of fermentation does not disqualify it from being the fruit of the vine. "The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Regarding me looking down my nose at folks, I realize I'm not popular with the free-willer group because I have exposed their misrepresentations of Reformed theology.

I suppose that folks don't like it when their deceptions are exposed, but if they criticize believers about their theology, they should criticize their theology, and not the strawman representation of it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The reason was when you consume a drink of wine you feel the warmth. Its symbolic of the blood of Christ. POWERFUL to save.

The evidence I provided above should be a SEALED DEAL already. I aint dumb enough to think churches are gonna change it though, its probably gonna end up being coca cola and baguettes one of these days WHO KNOWS whats coming down the pipe in 2019.

OH YEAH btw before anyone says it: I AM NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC, never have been. Im an independent BAPTIST and my Church does the juice gimmick as well, IT IS WHAT IT IS.

This is off topic, but some Presbyterians practice paedocommunion, which is giving babies the wine and bread once they have experienced infant baptism. Eastern Orthodox do it, too.

 

[posthuman]

I think it should be a full glass, and accompanied by a fellowship meal.

that's just the way i believe about it too!

another argument that could be made is how that when He instituted it, He was sharing seder with the disciples - which is a full meal. seder has a lot of ceremonial aspects to it too, but it's still a meal - Exodus 12:4 says a lamb should be chosen which will be an appropriate portion for everyone in the household. that's not just a sample taste; it's a dinner.

like i said before tho i wouldn't refuse to take communion with others who believe it is rightfully a small tab of bread and a sample of juice in a formalized ceremony; not to make anyone stumble - and i believe that's justifiable because as Magenta pointed out, it's not the outward appearance, but the inward truth which is 'judging righteously'