Should wine be used for the Lord's Supper?

[posthuman]

Right..I mean, we are kind of stuck with the results of the insistence of self-righteous church ladies of the 1800's. That's why men should form doctrine, and not be led about by women.

goodness!

i don't want to offend my beloved purple lady!
nor get sidetracked into a debate about sexism. she's my friend and i value her input & opinions quite a lot; she's taught me where i was wrong more than once.

 

[Hevosmies]

1 Corinthians 11:21 clearly describes people selfishly getting drunk when they are coming together for communion / the Lord's supper. you simply can't get drunk on non-alcoholic beverages; it's impossible. the same argument is applicable in John ch. 2 when He turns water into wine - there is clearly alcohol involved. the apology is made, that in that era wines were not as strong - but that just makes the case that they had to have drank so much more of it to have become 'well drunk' !

You wanna talk about trying to force our modern views of alcohol onto the Bible? You are correct on this sir.

I used to struggle A LOT with alcohol being used cause I hated it, but TOO BAD. The Bible allows it. My view on alcohol was more in line with the quran I learned to live with the idea and embraced it.

 

[PS]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

People drank wine as a matter of course, water was often contaminated. You may have seen them on TV asking for money so they can dig wells.

 

[posthuman]

its probably gonna end up being coca cola and baguettes one of these days WHO KNOWS whats coming down the pipe in 2019.

hahaha

 

[posthuman]

hahaha

you know, i posted this as a bit of a joke,
but what i honestly believe about this whole subject -- if what you have are triscuits and catsup, and you share it with fellow believers with Christ in mind, it is just as holy as a lamb and a flagon of wine eaten with your shoes on and your cloak tucked into your belt, with blood on your doorposts. it's not the physical representation of His sacrifices that makes the thing holy, but the truth of the One whom we remember in doing this together.
organic seaweed chips & sparkling cucumber-berry water is outward appearance. discerning His body is what counts, IMO.

 

[posthuman]

1 Corinthians 11:21 clearly describes people selfishly getting drunk when they are coming together for communion / the Lord's supper. you simply can't get drunk on non-alcoholic beverages; it's impossible. the same argument is applicable in John ch. 2 when He turns water into wine - there is clearly alcohol involved. the apology is made, that in that era wines were not as strong - but that just makes the case that they had to have drank so much more of it to have become 'well drunk' !

i should say, i don't see this as necessarily evidence that what most modern churches call communion is wrong/evil/ill-advised.
i see it as evidence that what the church generally does now is clearly not the same as what was done from the beginning.
the church does quite a lot of things differently these days than they did a couple thousand years ago - for a variety of reasons. just because something is done differently doesn't mean it should be condemned, IMO.

 

[PS]

you know, i posted this as a bit of a joke,
but what i honestly believe about this whole subject -- if what you have are triscuits and catsup, and you share it with fellow believers with Christ in mind, it is just as holy as a lamb and a flagon of wine eaten with your shoes on and your cloak tucked into your belt, with blood on your doorposts. it's not the physical representation of His sacrifices that makes the thing holy, but the truth of the One whom we remember in doing this together.
organic seaweed chips & sparkling cucumber-berry water is outward appearance. discerning His body is what counts, IMO.

It is about remembering Christ's death and resurrection, His life, work, ministry, the love of God, and the fact He did it for you and me, and realising that in all of this we partake of all that he did, and in humility we offer up our thanks as we lift the cup to our lips.

 

[NayborBear]

My position is that communion has overtones concerning union with Christ, and the slight alcohol creates a social environment which is reminiscent of this.

I don't believe that the amount of alcohol was just a thimble anyways.

God uses various ordinances like this to engage the senses and to preach the gospel through sensory means.

I know it's difficult for mass production, assembly line Christians to comprehend the original intentions, but I believe there was a reason behind the use of a small amount of alcohol at the LORD's supper.

The whole purpose of doing "communion?"
Which should be done as solemnly as possible.
Is REMEMBERING!
What Jesus did!
What the Father did for us!
It's not so much of what one eats or drinks. Or, if it's a banquet, or "less then a taste" of some unrealistic facsimile of "bread", and less then a 1/4 shot of wine or grape juice.

IT'S THE REMEMBERING!

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Yes we should. Every commandment of the Lord should be taken seriously and not 'watered down' literally in this case.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The whole purpose of doing "communion?"
Which should be done as solemnly as possible.
Is REMEMBERING!
What Jesus did!
What the Father did for us!
It's not so much of what one eats or drinks. Or, if it's a banquet, or "less then a taste" of some unrealistic facsimile of "bread", and less then a 1/4 shot of wine or grape juice.

IT'S THE REMEMBERING!

I agree the focus is the remembrance of what Jesus did, however, the Scriptural example is also important. I believe the gospel is physically preached through the ordinances, and failure to follow instructions reduces the effectiveness of the lesson.

It's sad that a bunch of self-righteous church ladies from the 1800's have dictated church practice in this regard.

As a former member of a legalistic cult, the absence of biblical accuracy within the evangelical church was a potential stumblingblock for me. I see the cult taking communion in a reasonably biblical manner, and the evangelical church doing something else. It's not a good situation.

However, even with their legalistic accuracy, they aren't observing it like the apostolic church either. They don't use a common cup, and they don't practice a communion meal at the same time.

Try to change it now, though, and the traditionalists in the crowd will have fits.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I agree the focus is the remembrance of what Jesus did, however, the Scriptural example is also important. I believe the gospel is physically preached through the ordinances, and failure to follow instructions reduces the effectiveness of the lesson.

It's sad that a bunch of self-righteous church ladies from the 1800's have dictated church practice in this regard.

As a former member of a legalistic cult, the absence of biblical accuracy within the evangelical church was a potential stumblingblock for me. I see the cult taking communion in a reasonably biblical manner, and the evangelical church doing something else. It's not a good situation.

However, even with their legalistic accuracy, they aren't observing it like the apostolic church either. They don't use a common cup, and they don't practice a communion meal at the same time.

Try to change it now, though, and the traditionalists in the crowd will have fits.

The Orthodox are still doing it correctly, I have visited an Orthodox church last time about a decade ago and it was done properly. The germ phobiacs are going to have a fit with the usage of a common cup.

I am not Orthodox by the way, they do their communion okay, but then you got the kissing of images of the saints, Mary, setting up candles and altars for them. It really looks like a den of idolatry often times, thats how I see it. The Lord is their judge however, perhaps some people in those churches are saved I have no say in that matter.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Orthodox are still doing it correctly, I have visited an Orthodox church last time about a decade ago and it was done properly. The germ phobiacs are going to have a fit with the usage of a common cup.

I am not Orthodox by the way, they do their communion okay, but then you got the kissing of images of the saints, Mary, setting up candles and altars for them. It really looks like a den of idolatry often times, thats how I see it. The Lord is their judge however, perhaps some people in those churches are saved I have no say in that matter.

One guy from the Greek Orthodox came into a chat room and the people there had fits about him. He began to tell them his church was the true church. He was a younger person. I have talked to him since then and he's a nice guy. He has admitted he doesn't think certain things about the Greek Orthodox church is right. It really doesn't do any good to attack people. I've seen Coptic Christians slowly migrate toward an evangelical position, but it was not through attacking them as heretics.

 

[breno785au]

I think it's more important that we learn to get together properly and have a meal in remembrance of Him rather than worrying about if we are having 10ml of grape juice or wine and a ration of a cracker and calling it communion.

 

[Magenta]

goodness!

i don't want to offend my beloved purple lady!
nor get sidetracked into a debate about sexism. she's my friend and i value her input & opinions quite a lot; she's taught me where i was wrong more than once.

Thank you post Of all the people I have come to know during my time here, I find you to be one of the most well informed, respectful, and reasonable people in your presentations of Scriptural Truth. I also appreciate your sense of humor I found this:

In the Hebrew and Greek, the word Wine is used to mean Gape Juice either fermented or unfermented. In Hebrew, the word is “yayin” H3196 except for where New Wine is specifically used the word “tiyros” (H8492) is a blessing from God and can be used to mean grapes, or juice, or New Wine (unfermented). In the New Testament, the word for wine is “oinos” G3631, and can mean either fermented, or unfermented grape juice.

When Wine is used to Symbolize Doctrine it is “Old Wine” or fermented grape juice, that is False Doctrine and “New Wine” or Unfermented grape juice, that is True Doctrine. (see Isaiah 28:7). Fermentation is a Symbol of Sin especially in wine where “Leaven” or yeast, is used to make the wine ferment. Yeast is also the leaven in bread that causes bread to rise. Since Wine and Bread are both symbols of the body of Christ, neither can be made with leaven or yeast which is a symbol for sin, since that would destroy the symbols of communion and Passover. The Greek word “Zume” (Strong’s G2219) is the word used for Leaven which also means “fermenting matter” source

 

[calibob]

It's clear to me that the Lord's supper was originally a Passover supper. They ate unleavened bread of course, because it was the first day of the feast of unleavened bread and that's what Jews were supposed to eat by law. Wine was not only safer to drink than water but it represented the covenant blessing. Bread was also a grain offering for Thanks giving and peace. Leavening represents sin. Jesus became the Sin offering; that's why He is known as the sinless/spotless Lamb of God.

Therefore the word communion being a contraction made up from common-union should consist of a common meal shared in remembrance of the Lord, taking the place of the lamb at Passover for us. We should sit together like a family, eat, drink and remember the Lord's sacrifice for us. Bread and fermented wine are traditional, but I suspect they drank new (unfermented) wine at the last supper, because yeast would represent sin. And the wine represents His sinless blood... the blood of the new covenant.
I personally don't believe that drinking fermented wine is a sin, but I don't think that's what they drank at the Lords supper.

​

 

[MattforJesus]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

It appears as if wine in the Bible can mean fermented or unfermented grape juice.

Pro 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

God said do not look upon the wine, do not drink it when it ferments, which He called it wine while it was unfermented.

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

It is not for kings and princes to drink wine, and Jesus is the King of kings, and the prince of peace, and He has made the saints kings and priests unto God the Father.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.

Jesus is the High Priest, and the saints are the royal priesthood.

Also God gives us peace that passes all understanding, and power, love, and a sound mind, and Jesus gives us joy that no person can take away, and the Spirit is the Comforter, so why would a saint want to drink wine to comfort them.

I can see in the Old Testament drinking alcohol for they did not have the Spirit, but not in the New Testament when we can have the Spirit.

Also why would God allow us to drink a little alcohol, but not a lot for that is a temptation and it could lead to more, for did God say you can kiss a girl but do not fornicate, or you can belittle your neighbor but do not hurt them physically, or you can steal a loaf of bread but do not steal a chariot.

But this is concerning drinking alcohol in general, but does it apply to the communion of not having fermented grape juice.

Did Jesus drink fermented grape juice.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

John the Baptist was to drink neither wine nor strong drink who was a mortal man, a sinner, so how much more would Jesus not drink it being sinless, and the Savior.

Which in this case it means fermented wine for it also states strong drink.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

And in case some may say Jesus drank wine for the Pharisees said He is a winebibber does not mean that He drank fermented wine for the Pharisees liked to accuse, and that falsely, and was always trying to trap Jesus in to saying something wrong, and entangle Him in His words, and try to prove Him false.

For John did not drink fermented wine nor strong drink and they said he had a devil.

For when people want to accuse they do not always play fair, but will say anything to put the person down and say they are false and wrong.

Jesus would of certainly not been a gluttonous man for God said eat food only efficient for you, and He would not drink fermented wine for not even John the Baptist could drink fermented wine.

And why would He allow the disciples to drink fermented wine when John the Baptist could not drink fermented wine.

Wine can mean fermented and unfermented grape juice.

Unless fermented wine was allowed to be drank by those without the Spirit which the disciples did not have yet, but Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and John had the Spirit from the womb.

But having the Spirit I do not see the purpose of drinking fermented wine.

So no matter what they say we can have the Spirit so it would seem like we should not drink fermented wine.

At least that is the way I see it.

For the last supper they could not eat leavened bread, bread with yeast in it, so it would seem it would be the same for the wine not to add yeast to it to ferment it.

But they could of drank wine that naturally fermented which would make the alcohol content less than using yeast, and less potent than wines today sold at the store.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It appears as if wine in the Bible can mean fermented or unfermented grape juice.

Pro 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

God said do not look upon the wine, do not drink it when it ferments, which He called it wine while it was unfermented.

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

It is not for kings and princes to drink wine, and Jesus is the King of kings, and the prince of peace, and He has made the saints kings and priests unto God the Father.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.

Jesus is the High Priest, and the saints are the royal priesthood.

Also God gives us peace that passes all understanding, and power, love, and a sound mind, and Jesus gives us joy that no person can take away, and the Spirit is the Comforter, so why would a saint want to drink wine to comfort them.

I can see in the Old Testament drinking alcohol for they did not have the Spirit, but not in the New Testament when we can have the Spirit.

Also why would God allow us to drink a little alcohol, but not a lot for that is a temptation and it could lead to more, for did God say you can kiss a girl but do not fornicate, or you can belittle your neighbor but do not hurt them physically, or you can steal a loaf of bread but do not steal a chariot.

But this is concerning drinking alcohol in general, but does it apply to the communion of not having fermented grape juice.

Did Jesus drink fermented grape juice.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

John the Baptist was to drink neither wine nor strong drink who was a mortal man, a sinner, so how much more would Jesus not drink it being sinless, and the Savior.

Which in this case it means fermented wine for it also states strong drink.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

And in case some may say Jesus drank wine for the Pharisees said He is a winebibber does not mean that He drank fermented wine for the Pharisees liked to accuse, and that falsely, and was always trying to trap Jesus in to saying something wrong, and entangle Him in His words, and try to prove Him false.

For John did not drink fermented wine nor strong drink and they said he had a devil.

For when people want to accuse they do not always play fair, but will say anything to put the person down and say they are false and wrong.

Jesus would of certainly not been a gluttonous man for God said eat food only efficient for you, and He would not drink fermented wine for not even John the Baptist could drink fermented wine.

And why would He allow the disciples to drink fermented wine when John the Baptist could not drink fermented wine.

Wine can mean fermented and unfermented grape juice.

Unless fermented wine was allowed to be drank by those without the Spirit which the disciples did not have yet, but Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and John had the Spirit from the womb.

But having the Spirit I do not see the purpose of drinking fermented wine.

So no matter what they say we can have the Spirit so it would seem like we should not drink fermented wine.

At least that is the way I see it.

For the last supper they could not eat leavened bread, bread with yeast in it, so it would seem it would be the same for the wine not to add yeast to it to ferment it.

But they could of drank wine that naturally fermented which would make the alcohol content less than using yeast, and less potent than wines today sold at the store.

Sounds like a bunch of Baptist, Pentecost, or Methodist reasoning to escape the fact that Jesus drank wine.



Abuse of alcohol is a sin, but not drinking alcohol in moderation.

By the way, red wine isn't unfermented.

Proverbs 23:31 Prov. 23:31 wine when it is red. This describes wine when it is especially desirable and when it is most intoxicating, perhaps as “strong drink” or mixed with spices only and not water, as opposed to the “new wine” (3:10), which was fresh and unfermented or less fermented (cf. Hos. 4:11).

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Regarding me looking down my nose at folks, I realize I'm not popular with the free-willer group because I have exposed their misrepresentations of Reformed theology.

I suppose that folks don't like it when their deceptions are exposed, but if they criticize believers about their theology, they should criticize their theology, and not the strawman representation of it.

don't fall off your soapbox

you have not exposed anything but what Calvin teaches

I understand that repetition creates an atmosphere among some that puffs up the false belief that a person is right

but like Jesus said, vain repetitions

to hear you say it, one might get the impression that Jesus was a Calvinist

I have read enough now and found enough literature now, that I am convinced even further, that Calvin operated from a bad spirit and his attitude was anything but Christlike

you really just create false aura of supposed truth while touting Calvin and saying your are not a Calvinist

but obviously you are a Calvinist. it the bad press he has a reason you don't want to identify?

 

[preacher4truth]

goodness!

i don't want to offend my beloved purple lady!
nor get sidetracked into a debate about sexism. she's my friend and i value her input & opinions quite a lot; she's taught me where i was wrong more than once.

Sentimentality, flattery and patronizing does not supplant nor transcend truth. Stick to God's word instead.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

interestingly, the church I grew up in always served fermented wine but would give non fermented to those who objected

obviously the wine described in scripture is fermented

drinking a little Welch's would not have helped Timothy's digestion at all

FYI and to whomever it may concern:

there have been threads on drinking wine or observing the last supper with fermented drink before on CC and everyone seems to have an opinion

just like this thread