Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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The Holy spirit is the understanding from God, your spirit is your own understanding. The effect of God being in us is that we grow in knowledge and wisdom (understanding of truth). With this understanding, we work the good works but we can still choose not to and it will sin.
David had the spirit of the Lord but still chose to go against God on several occasions, the reason he made a frantic prayer to the Lord not to take away His spirit from him.
So, the idea that now we have faith and it is God that does everything from the beginning to the end is a false teaching.
David had the spirit of the Lord but still chose to go against God on several occasions, the reason he made a frantic prayer to the Lord not to take away His spirit from him.
So, the idea that now we have faith and it is God that does everything from the beginning to the end is a false teaching.
Some comments that I read feel as if the person who makes them believe that they can force God to save them because of their faith ... as if they conditioned God, because of their own way of understanding things. It is not we who decide whether we are saved or not ... What we have to do is to seek God's approval.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
Some of Christ's letters to the churches in Revelation have warning messages about the works, not losing the crown of life, etc. These messages do not seem to indicate that salvation is something that can be achieved and not lost.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
Some of Christ's letters to the churches in Revelation have warning messages about the works, not losing the crown of life, etc. These messages do not seem to indicate that salvation is something that can be achieved and not lost.
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Baptizing again and again, not repenting. See how that makes sense, and repentance doesn't?
Once again, I do understand that this is how you see it. I understand you wish to persuade me to see it that way. But for me, That is not the beginning or the end of truth, or of understanding, it is the truth. Some times we hear things and they make no sense. Then sometime down the road when least expected, your eyes are opened, and "here a little there a little" bits of knowledge that once made no sense, like a bridge of cards are shuffled into a perfect deck, opening for you more truth than you ever knew existed. Once that happens to you, you never approach another and their beliefs the same way again. It changes you forever. But short summary from my side, only done from the place of hopefully getting you to quit trying to make me see what you believe I am not seeing, not knowing I have seen that truth myself before. So only for explanation from my point of view, and until you deep study the original manuscripts and seek out the individual words for their meanings, please understand I already understand what you would say
God created the earth to be inhabited. Tohu. And it was. And that age was destroyed. And it became null and void. Tohu va bohu. Later, at the beginning of this age, God said let there be light, and after the re-creation we were cast unto the earth, individually to a life in the flesh etc.
One of the requirements for eternal life is to be born in the flesh, "born from above", as opposed to the angels who left their habitation and who are reserved unto death never having been, "and born of the womb (water) (the leaving of their habitation their will, as opposed to being born in the flesh (Gods Will) which was the cause of the flood of Noah (another attempt by Satan to pollute the bloodline through which Jesus would come). So you see, things you now may believe are impossible, like born from above again, or water again, may not be. They may just be on another level of understanding. No one ever can no the whole bible, therefore we all "believe" by whatever GRACE GOD gives us. Only when we humble ourselves to Gods Will, will we ourselves receive more. And if you don't repent, you can't be washed clean, so you can't talk to God, so you stay in the knowledge of that state not really able to move on. One of the many bummers of not repenting whenever needed. I know, makes no sense at all. I get that.
If I were Satan, the prince of the power of the air, and my main area was that "of deception", I would first be going after "those seeking the Word", I would not only be teaching "the law and the prophets were done away with"" you don't have to know that anymore, that was abolished, but you are not to let anyone believe that if you can help it". I would definitely be teaching "the Spirit will lead you" you don't need to know what is written in the word, I would also be teaching "rest, don't do works, Jesus did it perfect and everything He did covers you forever, no matter what" and I would be teaching "you don't need to repent and be washed clean, God hears you all the time" and I would be teaching "all you have to do is believe and get baptized and you can't sin after that, you are saved no matter what you do" I would want everyone thinking they could do anything and they were saved forever, JESUS did it all for them, just I love you, so you just love me. I know you don't believe all these things but all these things are believed. Some even believe they are going to be flown away before a judgment. Insane to me, but fly away theories still abound where bthey will be the only ones since creation who will never have to be judged for eternal life.
It is so much harder to change a persons mind, than it is to teach it. What do you think Satan is hoping to find when he arrives, that description above or
A bunch of people who study His laws and His prophets because the take seriously the commandments and words of Jesus, study the Word to show themselves approved, putting on the gospel armor getting ready to fight the good fight, realizing they are still sinners so repenting for their sins, washing themselves in the blood of Jesus, talking with God, always newly cleansed free from sin, believing not only they can do wrong but they will do wrong, so they constantly strive to be better, believe that faith without works is dead, so works are nothing but good so they are going out doing them (Not 4 the 5), believe Jesus showed them the way so that they could do their best to please God His way. they are going to stay through the tribulation and overcome. You know I don't believe all of these things but they are believed.
tell me what you think? How do you see it?
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Once again, I do understand that this is how you see it. I understand you wish to persuade me to see it that way. But for me, That is not the beginning or the end of truth, or of understanding, it is the truth. Some times we hear things and they make no sense. Then sometime down the road when least expected, your eyes are opened, and "here a little there a little" bits of knowledge that once made no sense, like a bridge of cards are shuffled into a perfect deck, opening for you more truth than you ever knew existed. Once that happens to you, you never approach another and their beliefs the same way again. It changes you forever. But short summary from my side, only done from the place of hopefully getting you to quit trying to make me see what you believe I am not seeing, not knowing I have seen that truth myself before. So only for explanation from my point of view, and until you deep study the original manuscripts and seek out the individual words for their meanings, please understand I already understand what you would say
God created the earth to be inhabited. Tohu. And it was. And that age was destroyed. And it became null and void. Tohu va bohu. Later, at the beginning of this age, God said let there be light, and after the re-creation we were cast unto the earth, individually to a life in the flesh etc.
One of the requirements for eternal life is to be born in the flesh, "born from above", as opposed to the angels who left their habitation and who are reserved unto death never having been, "and born of the womb (water) (the leaving of their habitation their will, as opposed to being born in the flesh (Gods Will) which was the cause of the flood of Noah (another attempt by Satan to pollute the bloodline through which Jesus would come). So you see, things you now may believe are impossible, like born from above again, or water again, may not be. They may just be on another level of understanding. No one ever can no the whole bible, therefore we all "believe" by whatever GRACE GOD gives us. Only when we humble ourselves to Gods Will, will we ourselves receive more. And if you don't repent, you can't be washed clean, so you can't talk to God, so you stay in the knowledge of that state not really able to move on. One of the many bummers of not repenting whenever needed. I know, makes no sense at all. I get that.
If I were Satan, the prince of the power of the air, and my main area was that "of deception", I would first be going after "those seeking the Word", I would not only be teaching "the law and the prophets were done away with"" you don't have to know that anymore, that was abolished, but you are not to let anyone believe that if you can help it". I would definitely be teaching "the Spirit will lead you" you don't need to know what is written in the word, I would also be teaching "rest, don't do works, Jesus did it perfect and everything He did covers you forever, no matter what" and I would be teaching "you don't need to repent and be washed clean, God hears you all the time" and I would be teaching "all you have to do is believe and get baptized and you can't sin after that, you are saved no matter what you do" I would want everyone thinking they could do anything and they were saved forever, JESUS did it all for them, just I love you, so you just love me. I know you don't believe all these things but all these things are believed. Some even believe they are going to be flown away before a judgment. Insane to me, but fly away theories still abound where bthey will be the only ones since creation who will never have to be judged for eternal life.
It is so much harder to change a persons mind, than it is to teach it. What do you think Satan is hoping to find when he arrives, that description above or
A bunch of people who study His laws and His prophets because the take seriously the commandments and words of Jesus, study the Word to show themselves approved, putting on the gospel armor getting ready to fight the good fight, realizing they are still sinners so repenting for their sins, washing themselves in the blood of Jesus, talking with God, always newly cleansed free from sin, believing not only they can do wrong but they will do wrong, so they constantly strive to be better, believe that faith without works is dead, so works are nothing but good so they are going out doing them (Not 4 the 5), believe Jesus showed them the way so that they could do their best to please God His way. they are going to stay through the tribulation and overcome. You know I don't believe all of these things but they are believed.
tell me what you think? How do you see it?
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
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Spirit is mind as per those passages i quoted or at least the part that connects with the mind; the only process that happens in the mind is understanding.
This idea that God's spirit physically does things for us is not true. It gives us understanding and what we do with the understanding is a choice that has to be made by the person.
David had the spirit of God and for months if not years, still planned to go against God. If God controls our every action, why did David plan for months to have a man killed so that he can take his wife? or was it God's plan?!
This idea that God's spirit physically does things for us is not true. It gives us understanding and what we do with the understanding is a choice that has to be made by the person.
David had the spirit of God and for months if not years, still planned to go against God. If God controls our every action, why did David plan for months to have a man killed so that he can take his wife? or was it God's plan?!
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Salvation is the end of a process and not the beginning.
Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
Did you read my post before you answered,look at It again.You said no and the Bible clearly said that JESUS told him “you know the commandments”and the Bible also says that GOD counted them all coming short of the glory of GOD so then the answer Is yes not no to my post unless you are talking about something else.
Rom 13:11 (ESV) Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Paul says "salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believe". Paul did not think of salvation as something that you get when you come to believe.
12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Paul says "salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believe". Paul did not think of salvation as something that you get when you come to believe.
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But why are we told to hold fast if eveything is done in the beginning?
Rev 2:25Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. 26And to the one who is victorious andcontinues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations
Rev 3:11I am comingsoon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no onewill take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God,
Rev 2:25Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. 26And to the one who is victorious andcontinues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations
Rev 3:11I am comingsoon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no onewill take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God,
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It is interesting that sin is being used to say the ways of the law are evil.
The reason for repentance, confession and accepting forgiveness is to resolve failure.
Two laws are being spoken of here. The law of Moses and the law written on our hearts.
We cannot break the law written on our hearts that exercises our consciences.
This is the way of love and reality in Christ. Amen.
The reason for repentance, confession and accepting forgiveness is to resolve failure.
Two laws are being spoken of here. The law of Moses and the law written on our hearts.
We cannot break the law written on our hearts that exercises our consciences.
This is the way of love and reality in Christ. Amen.
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I agree with your point. But there is a passing from death to life, from the mortal to the eternal
in starting communion and fellowship with God. Being born again, having the Holy Spirit ministering
to our hearts, rejoicing in His work.
This is what people mean about being saved, and it is a real thing.
But ultimately it is a position of faith and not physical reality until Jesus returns.
Some want though to project this faith reality into a certain reality that cannot be undone, whatever
it is that has been done. In some of their minds they are now an eternal pure spirit who only does that
which is the will of God, except clearly from many behaviour and attitudes taken, whatever their spirit
is it is not the perfect will of God being expressed.
in starting communion and fellowship with God. Being born again, having the Holy Spirit ministering
to our hearts, rejoicing in His work.
This is what people mean about being saved, and it is a real thing.
But ultimately it is a position of faith and not physical reality until Jesus returns.
Some want though to project this faith reality into a certain reality that cannot be undone, whatever
it is that has been done. In some of their minds they are now an eternal pure spirit who only does that
which is the will of God, except clearly from many behaviour and attitudes taken, whatever their spirit
is it is not the perfect will of God being expressed.
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1
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Anger response. So Jesus rejects people who think that Jesus is their Lord but do evil deeds.
This comes at the end of teaching which is actions and attitudes towards others, with the summary,
do these things you will be building your house upon the rock.
Then the warning that foolish builders ignore the words, and the storms come and the house falls.
It would be very odd if the Lord was disowning His obedient loving children, and accepting those
who followed passive faith.
It is equivalent to a trainer of athlete runners after describing how one builds the body up to
run races, saying those who are in the audience are doing what he instructed. Absurd.
This comes at the end of teaching which is actions and attitudes towards others, with the summary,
do these things you will be building your house upon the rock.
Then the warning that foolish builders ignore the words, and the storms come and the house falls.
It would be very odd if the Lord was disowning His obedient loving children, and accepting those
who followed passive faith.
It is equivalent to a trainer of athlete runners after describing how one builds the body up to
run races, saying those who are in the audience are doing what he instructed. Absurd.
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