Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[FollowHisSteps]

Wrong

In any language if has multiple meanings, even in scripture it does not always means if.

In context. Hebrews is saying, If a person falls away (if it were possible) they could not be renewed.

Saying this proves a person can lose salvation, You must in context admit it means once that salvation is lost it is gone forever.

"wrong"

A grand standing comic strip declaration ...... "wrong" is even wrong in itself ..... it is just declaring someone
is upset .... at Gods word and its clear meaning.

I suppose to have no pride and to fall flat on ones face is the sign to some of wisdom ..... poor people.

I had an individual add to Gods word what they thought I meant, because it was the only way they could try
and get at me, except they got it wrong. Again another falling flat on ones face ....... Would be funny if it was
not on such important issues ...... but maybe some are beyond help.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

There is indeed more than one way to look at this parable.

It it’s plainest sense the Father had two sons, they never ceased to be His sons, however the younger one lost his relationship, close fellowship with the Father. If the prodigal has died in a foreign land, the obituary would have said, “ The son of ................, died in a foreign land.”

Many folks get angry, like the older son, when they see how much God can truly forgive, they want to earn their way into their relationship with God and somehow pay, for their own sins.

Though this parable illustrates bigger truths, it should be understood in its plainest sense.

I do not see anyone getting angry at the loss of the prodigal son, if they never return, just sorrow.
The anger in the parable is the welcoming the returning son with the fated calf.

You seem to want to forgive the prodigal son without repentance or change of heart.
That is universalism, which is your faith not mine.

The reason why this makes sense to you, because any connection between God and man at any point
in life is enough to save them. It is not the quality of the connection or it lasting, just that it exists.

God though declares the only connection He respects is the fruitful one. Many seem to have missed this.
Only the fruitful get Gods blessing. Without fruit all is lost.

But Jesus reassures fruit will always come if we abide and follow, always.

So the answer many are calling for is ignoring the gospel and being as generous as possible to all, because
hell is so terrible, any faint whisper is enough.

But God says simply the door is small, the way narrow and few find it. The truth can never be compromised
but everything has been done to make this possible for the elect, the most possible. God bless you.

 

[mailmandan]

Nope.
Apart from Christ we can do something but it won't be counted as righteousness, but in Christ we MUST do something alongside our faith to be counted righteous. Therefore it can not be faith alone.
Loving other people is not a choice but a command that MUST be obeyed, without it, your faith means nothing.

Nope.
Faith, not works is accounted for righteousness, then loving other people follows as a result of having been born of God. You place the cart before the horse.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

 

[mailmandan]

Well, that physical action requires your effort so it can not be faith alone.

So you teach salvation by faith + works?

 

[Noose]

Nope.
Faith, not works is accounted for righteousness, then loving other people follows as a result of having been born of God. You place the cart before the horse.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

James 2:
20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?f 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”g and he was called a friend of God. 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spieshand sent them off on another route? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Noose]

So you teach salvation by faith + works?

James 2: 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

 

[Noose]

So you teach salvation by faith + works?

It is funny that the only place the bible mentions 'faith alone', it condemns it.

 

[Sipsey]

I do not see anyone getting angry at the loss of the prodigal son, if they never return, just sorrow.
The anger in the parable is the welcoming the returning son with the fated calf.

You seem to want to forgive the prodigal son without repentance or change of heart.
That is universalism, which is your faith not mine.

The reason why this makes sense to you, because any connection between God and man at any point
in life is enough to save them. It is not the quality of the connection or it lasting, just that it exists.

God though declares the only connection He respects is the fruitful one. Many seem to have missed this.
Only the fruitful get Gods blessing. Without fruit all is lost.

But Jesus reassures fruit will always come if we abide and follow, always.

So the answer many are calling for is ignoring the gospel and being as generous as possible to all, because
hell is so terrible, any faint whisper is enough.

But God says simply the door is small, the way narrow and few find it. The truth can never be compromised
but everything has been done to make this possible for the elect, the most possible. God bless you.

I think you missed my point, I tried.

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is the end of a process and not the beginning.

Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved

You are confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and justification with glorification. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

 

[mailmandan]

It is funny that the only place the bible mentions 'faith alone', it condemns it.

And James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - “barren of works.” (James 2:14) *Not to be confused with salvation through faith in Christ alone, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

The Bible clearly teaches in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

*You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in these many passages of scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[Noose]

You are confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and justification with glorification. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Doesn't matter.
1. Who has been saved from the penalty of sin? isn't it everyone, every human being?
2. Who has been saved from the power of sin? isn't i everyone, every human being?

1 & 2 covers everyone, whosoever, for Jesus came to save the world, not faith alonists.

3. Who will be saved from the presence of sin?
This is the most important salvation if there's such a thing as categories of salvation. Only those that endure to the end/ hold fast to what they have until the end/ who have faith accompanied by works/ those that will become victorious and will be rewarded for their efforts.

 

[Noose]

And James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - “barren of works.” (James 2:14) *Not to be confused with salvation through faith in Christ alone, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Twist and turn.
Paul in the simplest of terms is saying 'faith in Christ alone' doesn't save you. Paul is not ta;king of some kind of faith but faith in Christ.

James 2: 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rom 13:11 (ESV) Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Paul says "salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believe". Paul did not think of salvation as something that you get when you come to believe.

Yep.. The actual fullfilment of what we HAVE.

It is what gives us HOPE. As John said, it is also what allows us to CONTINUE in faith.

Titus 3: 5, Not by any works of righteousness which you have done, but by GoDS MERCY HE SAVED US.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 6 New International Version (NIV)
6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have (fallen[c] away), to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

The Certainty of God’s Promise
13 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”[d] 15 And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.

16 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

FALLING AWAY MEANS, A PERSON WHO NEVER COMES BACK. They have turned from the Faith.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will (depart from the faith) by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Some who were in the faith departed from the faith-.

Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have (fallen); (repent), and (do the works you did at first). If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 6- only applies to us if we dont come back and repent and do the same works we did at first. If we leave God and dont ever Come back.

Face it. Until you answer what James meant when he said NO WORKS. You have no credibility, and anything you say is meaningless.

Please stop tryign to hide, Your not fooling anyone.

WHat Did James mean when he said NO WORKS.

Until you answer this, I will not respond to anything else you say.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Face it. Until you answer what James meant when he said NO WORKS. You have no credibility, and anything you say is meaningless.
Please stop tryign to hide, Your not fooling anyone.
WHat Did James mean when he said NO WORKS.
Until you answer this, I will not respond to anything else you say.

One point - upon which everything else hangs, so without an answer nothing makes sense.

What does he mean? No works obviously is anything that reflects a loving heart, so not helping
a brother in need shows no love is active. It is so obvious, does it even need focusing on except
maybe this individual has no love or works in their heart, so is stuck at ground zero.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Lets face the truth. Until the cross is in your heart you have nothing.
Everything springs from the greatest act the universe has ever seen which means Jesus is exalted

9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev 5

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I think you missed my point, I tried.

I know your point, I disagree with it. We are all humans but that does not make us all saved.
My father went to church but that does not make me a christian.
Satan came from heaven, but that does not make good or not under judgement
Judas was an apostle but that does not make him saved and whole.

Adam came from the garden of eden but that does not make him able to return or in communion
with God.

Jesus became a man and walked this earth but that does not make all men capable of following
him.

It is easy to blur the edges of Gods revelation if you want to. It is why God made it like this, so
it is your heart that determines ones destination not the argument.

 

[mailmandan]

Twist and turn.
Paul in the simplest of terms is saying 'faith in Christ alone' doesn't save you. Paul is not ta;king of some kind of faith but faith in Christ.

James 2: 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

False and there is no twisting and turning on my part. You don’t understand because you teach works salvation.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous.” James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous before God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.."The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

 

[Nat2019]

NOTICE THE WORD (UNLESS)

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—(unless) indeed you fail to meet the test!


NOTICE THE WORDS THEY ENDURED FOR A WHILE.

NOTICE THE WORDS THEY FELL AWAY.

Mark 4:17
And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

SOME DISICPLES CHOSE TO WALK AWAY FROM JESUS

John 6:66
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

SOME PEOPLE WILL (TURN AWAY) FROM LISTENING TO THE TRUTH

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Jeremiah 8:5
Why then has this people turned away in perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit; they refuse to return.