Not By Works

[Terrie431]

Hi Ariel!

Believe me, I was not trying to be flippant; & therefore offensive. Philippians 3:14 is what I was referring to when I said, "Grand Prize".

Sure, if the Spirit leads one to church that's, of course, different. I was speaking specifically of using church invitation as a way to not share the Gospel. I'm not saying I know people's hearts when they do that. I don't. All I can go by is what they say & the context in which it is said. With that in mind, I do think that instead of testifying about Jesus, Who He is, & what He has done, they use church invitation. Just my $0.02 worth, if that.

Thank you for your response.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why is it that some 2000 years later the ones working their way to heaven hold the exact disdain towards others as those who were working their way to heaven did toward others in Jesus' day?

Must go with the territory.

 

[Persuaded]

Examine this, really. EG and dcon have been gaining mastery over their tongues (by leaps and bounds.) They have been achieving this through trusting God. Is there a single person in here who hasn't thanked God for it?

Yet that man has NO control over his tongue but claims to be obedient.

It's a tight and concise example of trust versus working to be holy ("so called," because it's a sham).

My question is why he is allowed to continue to charge people as hypergracers?
I thought that was a no no.

 

[Grace777x70]

I can't calm myself. It's too astounding. And now I'm remembering what Cee said yesterday that I couldn't understand either. But it makes sense now. Where he said: going toward vs. coming FROM righteousness. PFFT! Too amazing...

This teaching here on God's greatest gift to us of His righteousness will feed our new creation in Christ and your heart will burn with the witness of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit bears witness of Christ's work.

Let me know what you think of this.

[video=vimeo;11274133]https://vimeo.com/11274133[/video]

 

[UnderGrace]

So true we cannot prove anything, God can reveal the Holy Spirit to others sometimes but it was His work when He chooses to reveal.

Hi, DRose. May I call you that? Thank you for your kind welcome.

Over here in the U.S., that doctrine is prevalent in formal preaching. As I was telling Stunned, it often goes like this: "We live a righteous life (do good works., etc.), so others can see Jesus in us". I believe it is false because people couldn't see Jesus in Jesus; living righteously is for God's Glory; the carnal man has no understanding of spiritual matters; & faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God.

I think it is a doctrine that is used to aide in avoiding mentioning Jesus' Name in the spreading of the Good News of Jesus Christ to the world. Similarly, I think that of inviting non-believers to church. I think that because Paul tells us not to be unequally yoked and that darkness doesn't have anything to do with Light. Church is a place for believers (yes, CHRISTians) to go to worship God together, to fellowship, to encourage and lift up one another, & to spur one another to good deeds. To finish the race toward the Grand Prize (i.e., eternal life with Jesus).

Thank you for your response.

 

[Ariel82]

The whole topic of hyper grace is a no no..,,teaching it, preaching it, fighting about who is and isn't...

Just stick to terms like mental assent and easy believism...both shown to be heresies and antibiblical.

If folks do a study on taming the tongue..gossiping should be i,closed in that study.

It's a bad habit most of the world needs to learn to break.,,,speak to the person directly or don't speak about their perceived sins and transgressions at all..,pm if you are friends would be recommended method of rebuke.

 

[Grace777x70]

That's a very relevant scripture to what we are discussing Stephen! Very timely!
What was the leaven being spoken of? What was the persuasion that he called leaven? What were those believers being persuaded from and what had they been persuaded towards?

The scriptures talk about 5 kinds of leaven.

1) The leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees - which is self-righteousness and some didn't believe in the supernatural such as the resurrection. Matt. 16:6

2) The leaven of Herod - which is the world's belief system - living from the natural world's way of thinking which is corrupted. Mark 8:15

3) The leaven of the Galatians - legalism and mixture of law and grace. Gal. 5:1-11

4) The leaven of the Corinthians - which is in wickedness, malice, envy and immorality and slanderers of others in the body of Christ. 1 Cor. 5:6-11

5) The kingdom of God and how a little of it is like leaven and how things are grown in the kingdom - Matt. 13:33, Luke 13:21


All of them speak of things that influence us while we are in this earth and a little of them can grow into something bigger if put into practice.

 

[PHart]

"Our works, deeds, fruit, obedience do prove that we are His children."

Please tell what are all of these works that you do to prove you are his child; if works, be specific what works, what kind of deeds, bearing fruit; what type of fruit, where by evangelizing the lost; how should we be obedient in what way's. Otherwise this is just Christian lingo that sounds nice - notice that a salvation by works believer will never specify what they do.

I'm not a works salvationist, but here is where the Bible says what the works are that accompany salvation:

"...things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints." (Hebrews 6:9-10 NASB)

​

You probably know how literal circumcision was the sign of being in covenant with God in the old covenant. In this New Covenant circumcision of the heart in the putting off of the deeds of the flesh is the sign that you are in covenant with God. Ephesians chapters 4-6 and Colossians chapters 3-4 are lengthy lists of 'works' that Christians do.

 

[Meggido]

No offence, but you have proven nothing....Abel was already saved before he offered blood, so was Noah, David etc....and to be frank...you have proven your inability to admit truth without being filled with vitriol and the same judgmental attitude that permeates all workers for!

Yep, just as I expected...You have no answer for this. everybody wins and gets to heaven.....

Why not just admit it...you are a die hard universalism believer....

I bet the struggle to keep from telling people like me that God never really will send anyone to hell just makes you itch....

 

[Seohce]

Keep wondering...no one I know does that...faith alone saves...maybe one day you will undersrand that...and no one here preaches what you imply in your opening statement......next?

Hi good morning Sir , here's your dose of medicine for today;

Matthew 19:16-30 The Rich Young Man Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

 

[Desertsrose]

"Our works, deeds, fruit, obedience do prove that we are His children."

Please tell what are all of these works that you do to prove you are his child; if works, be specific what works, what kind of deeds, bearing fruit; what type of fruit, where by evangelizing the lost; how should we be obedient in what way's. Otherwise this is just Christian lingo that sounds nice - notice that a salvation by works believer will never specify what they do.

Oh foolish Galatians; "Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?" Galatians3:3

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John13:35.

Hi Truthtalk,

I think you're taking my comment in the wrong spirit because you misunderstand what's been said. And I also think you're prejudging me.

Maybe more explanation is needed.

The proof of our life in Christ is a life long journey. I'm not out to prove I have works, fruit, obedience or deeds. They happen as we live our life in Christ and as we walk in obedience to His will and what He tells us to do in the word.

As I put off my old man and live in the newness of my new life in Christ, in the new man, I will walk in righteousness. If that sounds proud, it's not meant to. I'll mess up along the way too, but praise God that He forgives us!

Examples of the obedience of the believer is when we die to ourselves and take up our cross to follow Jesus. When we begin to love others and put them before our own needs wants or desires, that's the Lord changing us from within. And yes, this happens all the time. Do I sometimes act selfishly? Yes, we still struggle with the old man.

When we continue to forgive those who sin against us, it shows that the Lord is truly our God in whom we live to please. Have I ever struggled to forgive someone. Yes, but I kept giving the problem to the Lord and asking Him to change my heart so that I could truly forgive this person. And He helped me to see my own sin and even if something happened unjustly, it happened to Him as well and so He understands our frailty. And He strengthened me to be able to forgive and erase the wrongs done.

When we love and serve our family we do it as unto the Lord. In other words we serve them as if they are Jesus. The same for the person that's on the street, in the grocery store, wherever. We are to serve Jesus and by doing so we will be obedient as He guides our day to serve others as well.

As I read the word of God and act on the truth of it, I'm in obedience to His will. As I trust Him for food, work, paying the bills, etc my faith is being proved as genuine. Especially when we don't know how God's going to provide. When we struggle with the flesh, even if we fail, but continue to trust the Lord, we show our faith is genuine. As we confess our sins and are cleansed, we are living in relationship with our Heavenly Father. I could keep going on, but I think/hope you understand my point. If you don't like what I've said or agree with it that's okay, but please don't condemn me for it because God is my judge and leads me and guides me ......... and He says there's no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

So when you try to condemn me, I'm not hearing the voice of God through you.

 

[UnderGrace]

The narrow gate is Jesus.

It is hard to enter because we cannot let go of our own self-righteousness and die to our self-effort to gain salvation

In this passage you will notice that Paul is saying to not follow worldly fables, Paul's correction is always towards right belief.

You are what you believe, and what you believe is formed in you, Paul tells us to be persuaded of God's perfect life in us.

Hi undergrace,

Jesus tells us to strive to enter the narrow gate.

Your quote in 2 Peter is telling us what we need to add to our faith. We are to do this. We are to work with the Lord and the Spirit and actively grow in Christ. It's His power within us that enables us to add those things to our faith.

1 Timothy 4:6-11
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things.

Not only are we to work and strive, but this is to be taught to believers; it's also the Lord's prescription for Godly living to labor and strive.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

With all love Magenta, you are a brave woman, a fierce warrior for the truth. I love that about my you!!!

Sometimes we step out in faith and we learn...we do learn!!

You called magenta "my you." Along with the pic of the little kitten, that was too cute, even though it was a mistake.
You guys are my you's.

 

[TruthTalk]

Why is it that some 2000 years later the ones working their way to heaven hold the exact disdain towards others as those who were working their way to heaven did toward others in Jesus' day?

Must go with the territory.

The human spirit is so proud, original sin. I can work out this problem; and hope God will overlook my failures.

"The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate." Gen3:12

Like I said on another post: A wise person once told me; 'if you want to worry about losing your salvation based upon your good works, go ahead be my guest.'

Got wisdom: Quote: "Raphael paints wisdom, Handel sings it, Phidias carves it, Shakespeare writes it, Wren builds it, Columbus sails it, Luther preaches it, Washington arms it. By: Ralph Waldo Emerson. (Quotesictionary.com).

 

[Meggido]

If sin is not paid for, we can not be restored to god, we would still be dead

again, study the day of atonement,

Before Messiah came sin was never paid,forgiven or removed through the blood of bulls and goats...The peoples sin were merely covered from year to year and not forgiven until Messiah came.

Heb 10.4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Atonement in the Hebrew mean to cover over, not take away...

It is not until God tells Jeremiah of the New Covenant, that forgiveness of sin is instituted and made a provision of covenant with God.

Jeremiah 31.27-34
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. [SUP]28 [/SUP]As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“In those days they will not say again,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

[SUP]30 [/SUP]But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, [SUP]32 [/SUP]not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. [SUP]33 [/SUP]“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]34 [/SUP]They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

[Desertsrose]

I think it becomes more passive as we go along. At least for me it has been this way.

Hi Stunned,

If that's true in your life ....."Praise the Lord!" And I mean that sincerely. *hugs*

For me though, the older I get and the more I study God's word, the more I realize when I learn something new that there's so much I don't know and there's so much more to learn.

It's like I'm excavating the scriptures and I continue to find more beauty and more nuggets of precious jewels.

And I also am learning I need to be more intentional in prayer, in reading the word, in service to Him because I tend to plan out my day as I want it to go.

I had a dear sweet mentor who has gone on to be with the Lord. She's the one who taught me that I need to plan my day. I can put nothing on my calendar and expect things to just happen ...... maybe they do and maybe they don't.

But the more intentional I am, the more I give more of my life to the Lord. The more I fill it with praise and worship to Him and the more I look for opportunities for divine appointments.

I'm sure others don't need this in their lives, but I do. We're all different.

 

[Meggido]

Not entirely sure if Ariel and stunned is addressing myself and Meggido, but I came back online to say this...funny that I knew to do this too..

I am not entirely at odds with Meggido. I do know what he is speaking about and I agree with him wholly as to how the body of Christ should be operating in maturity.

I only disagree with him on this matter of the positional righteousness being foundational truth. Well, too...I see Holy Spirit operating moreso than us and my thinking is he centers too much on our part. I think there should be balance in this. Perhaps we should hash this out in pms.

But, when it comes to spiritual operation? I agree with him.

Sister, when I speak to a mature saint, like you, it is my expectation that when I speak of things we do, it is a given that it is the Holy Spirit and empowering grace at work in us that is doing all we do...

I can do nothing without the Holy Spirit, empowering grace and the anointing of God, which is his yoke destroying, burden lifting life changing power upon and within us...

 

[UnderGrace]

So so funny, I absolutely need to stop multi-tasking I am making mistakes all over the place. I find stuff like that very funny though, like the wok from last night I think it was.

Boy did I get in trouble on another thread for reading wrongly ....it was really just reading too quickly...that can cause problems I guess.

Okay so I will put my bowl of chocolate ice cream away and stay focused and type legibly

You called magenta "my you." Along with the pic of the little kitten, that was too cute, even though it was a mistake.
You guys are my you's.

 

[Meggido]

I'm not entirely at odds with him either, or with stephen for that matter. It's their unlovely speech and ungentleness that I object to. They do not seem to speak lovingly a lot of the time.

If you really study it out...Paul was probably at best like us, or worse....

I am comfortable in my gift as sand paper to the body of Christ....I can either be gentle to bring out beauty, medium grain to empower maturity or a belt sander to take out defect and restore the wood to workable form.....

 

[PHart]

So true we cannot prove anything, God can reveal the Holy Spirit to others sometimes but it was His work when He chooses to reveal.

Paul exhorts us to prove ourselves to be children of God:

14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God..." (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB)


This 'proving' is what James was talking about when he said, "24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24 NASB).

We all know very well how we are justified by faith apart from works. But James says you are also justified by works. You see, the word 'justified' has more than one definition:

• 1.
  show or prove to be right or reasonable.
• 2.
  THEOLOGY
  declare or make righteous in the sight of God.
  
  

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=active&rlz=1C1GIWA_enUS585US585&q=justify+definition&oq=justify+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.19041.20646.0.23221.3.3.0.0.0.0.84.221.3.3.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.3.220...0i13k1.zSHPEKTptlI​

Paul says we are justified (made righteous) by faith apart from works. James is using the other definition of justified when he says we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works.

The point being, James says the believer is justified according to both definitions of 'justified'. He says if you can not be justified by works you have a faith that is dead and can not save you. Paul's 'justification by faith apart from works', and James' 'justification by what you do' go hand in hand. They are inseparable in a genuine, saving relationship with God. To claim you have justification by faith but do not also have justification by works (see definitions above) means you are not born again. You have a 'faith' that can not save you (James 2:14).

That's not a works gospel. Works being necessary in salvation as James says it must be is not a works gospel. The person who has been justified by faith apart from works is the one who will show the proof of his justification by faith apart from works by what he does. That's how works are required in salvation.