THE RAPTURE

[Wall]

No one verse in particular at the moment.
I just wondered if it ever happened that you were reading (even in the NT sometimes) and...saw verses that were comforting that then seemed to abruptly take a turn. Like that one from Isaiah.

I just always wonder when I see that if there is some division of time and a division of events instead of it being...contiguous like my mind sees it.

I guess in the verses of Thess you quoted, this is one of those that seems to do that...the apostle is saying take comfort and then what follows seems comforting and then BAM! it suddenly is NOT comforting.

Its comfort to those who belong to God and discomfort for those who are not. Heres a couple scriptures that also speak of His return with fire.

2 THESSALONIANS 1 [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN with his mighty angels,[8] In flaming FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

PSALM 50 [3] OUR GOD SHALL COME, and shall not keep silence: a FIRE shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. [4] He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. [5] Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. [6] And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

See where His Saints are gathered. The fire wont burn them. The fact that His people are gathered AFTER His return with fire should tell ya there aint no rapture

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, THE LORD WILL COME WITH FIRE, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. [18] For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

 

[God4me]

The first thing you need to understand is the difference between the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath. They most certainly are NOT the same thing. The Great Tribulation is the all out attack on Israel by Satan's Islamic forces to Israel's north. When the Abomination of Desolation is seen, who are told to flee?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Only those in Judea are told to flee. And why do they have to flee? It's simple, because they come under full attack as we are told in Eze 38:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land...

You see, the above is the Great Tribulation and it coincides with the warning to flee Judea. This attack is what provokes God to wrath as we see further in Eze 38:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken...

You are correct, we are not appointed to God's wrath but we are certainly appointed to Tribulation. Jesus Himself tells us we are appointed to tribulation (small "t"). This idea that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath and that it is Global and therefore we must be raptured off the planet to avoid God's wrath is utter nonsense and a fabrication of man. The Rapture, is for the remnant, those not killed. Paul tells us this in 1 Thes 4:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

See that? Alive and remain!!! What do you think they are alive and remaining from? A day at the beach?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is the ELECT who have survived that are gathered. The vast majority of Christians have been killed long before this. The killing of Christians starts in big numbers before the Great Tribulation of Israel. How do you think the Martyrs of the 5th seal get to heaven? Why are we shown the Great Multitude of Rev 7?

Christians are under assault BEFORE and during the Great Tribulation and there are many passages that teach this. When will my brothers and sisters wake up to this truth?

Mat 24: [SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake... [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Rev 12: ...and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13: [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

Dan 11: ...but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

Rev 11: [SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Israel and the Church (the Two Witnesses) will come under massive assault and will be slaughtered in huge numbers as we see here.

Rev 7: ...and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb... So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Unless God shortens the days of Satan's Great Tribulation, no flesh would be left alive. It is the remnant, those who are still alive and remaining that are "raptured" in 1 Thes 4:17.

I know the difference between the great tribulation and God's wrath, My point is, We escape both of them, As we will be in heaven at those times.

WE ARE NOT appointed to the wrath of Satan in the tribulation period. Not according to Jesus,[ through His own words]
Lk 21: 36.
And what He spoke through Paul, 1 Thess 5: 9.
Why do you tribulater's want to tribulate when Jesus said we won't go through the tribulation period?.

You have to know when the Bible is talking about the "Elect" Christians, and when it's talking about the "Elect" Jews, And you have got the Christians mixt up with the Elect Jews.

Some of your relations were around in the time of 2 Thess 2, and were upsetting the Christians with sayings and letters about them having to go through the tribulation period, So Paul wrote 2 Thes 2, to the Church to encourage them that they WONT be going through the trib.
The chapter is about the Church being raptured before the ant-Christ can come, as he cannot begin his operations while we are here, We are the one's who are holding him back.
If the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus, How is he going to handle millions who are just like Jesus??.. He can't, That's one reason why we have to go first.
And we will be just like Jesus, in holiness and great power, Eph 5: 27. 1 Jn 3: 2--3.

I don't know about you, But I know that Jesus has given me power and authority over the devil and demons, which will get stronger and stronger just before the end of the Church age.

PS, Rev 7: 9--15, are the MID trib raptured people, NOT the PRE- trib raptued people.

 

[popeye]

Its comfort to those who belong to God and discomfort for those who are not. Heres a couple scriptures that also speak of His return with fire.

2 THESSALONIANS 1 [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN with his mighty angels,[8] In flaming FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

PSALM 50 [3] OUR GOD SHALL COME, and shall not keep silence: a FIRE shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. [4] He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. [5] Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. [6] And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

See where His Saints are gathered. The fire wont burn them. The fact that His people are gathered AFTER His return with fire should tell ya there aint no rapture

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, THE LORD WILL COME WITH FIRE, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. [18] For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

"......there ain't no rapture"

News flash.

The "rapture" is the first resurrection.

You know,the thing missing from your deal.

Call it the first resurrection. Then tell us everything around it w/o mentioning what it is.

Oh wait you have already done that.

Nevermind.

Just pretend 1 thes 4 does not exist.

 

[Wall]

The chapter is about the Church being raptured before the ant-Christ can come, as he cannot begin his operations while we are here, We are the one's who are holding him back.

Uh...

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The 1st one. So if those who are in this resurrection {the first} had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

 

[Wall]

Just pretend 1 thes 4 does not exist.

Thanks for explaining what the 1st resurrection will be. Itll help in understanding previous post. As for 1Thes 4 i already proved with scripture that it will be a time when we meet the Lord in the air and its off to Jerusalem

 

[God4me]

Uh...

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The 1st one. So if those who are in this resurrection {the first} had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

That has nothing to do with the Church age.
The "First resurrection", in Rev 20, is the resurrection of those who were killed during the tribulation period.
It's not the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 52, Or 1 Thess 4: 16.
The Church has come back from heaven and reigned with Jesus, for 1000 years before the first resurrection in Rev 20.

 

[popeye]

Uh...

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The 1st one. So if those who are in this resurrection {the first} had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

Now

According to 1thes 4 they are raised first.

THEN those alive.

Right?

BTW,YOUR FIRST RESURRECTION VERSE IS AFTER THE WRATH.

Did you know that?

 

[popeye]

That has nothing to do with the Church age.
The "First resurrection", in Rev 20, is the resurrection of those who were killed during the tribulation period.
It's not the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 52, Or 1 Thess 4: 16.
The Church has come back from heaven and reigned with Jesus, for 1000 years before the first resurrection in Rev 20.

No
That is the GWT JUDGEMENT. SECOND RESURRECTION

 

[Wall]

Again,nothing about the first redurrection

Ya do know Popeye that everytime an event is talked about in scripture the full details of that event are not found in each and every scripture. Anyways ya wanna see the 1st resurrection in the scriptures i posted. Here ya go.

1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

One shepherd.

[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom

 

[jaybird88]

I think people are too obsessed with the last days. When we stand before God we wont be judged on our eschatological views but how we lived our lives.

i agree with you tnk. i see to many get consumed by end times / treb stuff and completely fall away as it becomes their main focus for everythng.

 

[GaryA]

As always - and, every time without exception - the fact that there are too many definitions of the word 'rapture' - it becomes a "stumbling block"...


What does the word 'rapture' mean to you?

( Please be sure to read post #31. )

 

[Wall]

Can any of you Rapturist tell me if scripture below will suddenly vanish from your bibles after you are raptured to heaven

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[GaryA]

As always - and, every time without exception - the fact that there are too many definitions of the word 'rapture' - it becomes a "stumbling block"...


What does the word 'rapture' mean to you?

( Please be sure to read post #31. )

"And, while you are at it, please also read posts 103-105."

EDIT: ( And, perhaps, post #109. )

Thank you.

 

[God4me]

No
That is the GWT JUDGEMENT. SECOND RESURRECTION

It's after the pre trib rapture, the tribulation and the coming of the Church with Jesus to reign for 1000 years.

 

[God4me]

Can any of you Rapturist tell me if scripture below will suddenly vanish from your bibles after you are raptured to heaven

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah accended to heaven, so either Jesus was wrong, or He meant something else.
Those who die in Christ, are in heaven.

 

[PlainWord]

Dear GodforMe,

I know the difference between the great tribulation and God's wrath, My point is, We escape both of them, As we will be in heaven at those times.

Please show me a verse that says we will be in heaven (via rapture and not death) before the Great Tribulation.

WE ARE NOT appointed to the wrath of Satan in the tribulation period. Not according to Jesus,[ through His own words]
Lk 21: 36.

Let's look at this verse:

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

What things are they to escape and how do they escape them? I already showed you. It says so back in verse 20 and in Mat 24 and 13. It's the same warning and same place to go to escape the Great Tribulation:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

All one who is living in Israel has to do to escape is flee to the mountains aka other nations. Then those ELECT who escape are gathered again by Christ when He returns.

...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You have to know when the Bible is talking about the "Elect" Christians, and when it's talking about the "Elect" Jews, And you have got the Christians mixt up with the Elect Jews.

Please tell me who are the ELECT Jews and who are the ELECT Christians and show me passages that shows how they are treated differently. In other words, show me a passage that states "ELECT Christians get Raptured before the attack on Israel while ELECT Jews are Left Behind to be slaughtered." I submit to you that there is no separate treatment. We are all grafted into one Olive Tree, see Romans 11.

Some of your relations were around in the time of 2 Thess 2, and were upsetting the Christians with sayings and letters about them having to go through the tribulation period, So Paul wrote 2 Thes 2, to the Church to encourage them that they WONT be going through the trib.

I have to disagree here too. The Thessalonians were concerned that they might have missed the Second Coming. They weren't concerned about going through the Tribulation since they were already being persecuted. In speaking about Christ's one and only return, Paul says this:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped...

Paul makes clear that Christ WILL NOT come until the falling away (mass slaughter of Christians) AND the appearance of the Man of Sin. Go back a chapter and you will see that Christians are being persecuted and will NOT get their rest until Jesus is revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

There is no passage anywhere that discusses an earlier, or different return of Jesus. There is no return that has Christ removing people from earth and taking them to heaven alive. There is no concept taught of a tribulation saint vs any other saint.

We avoid God's wrath by leaving the affected areas. God wouldn't be telling us to leave if He was going to snatch us away.

Rev 18: [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Jer 51: [SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her! And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord.

There is no "fly away" to avoid anything coming on earth whether it is Satan doing it (Wrath of Satan, Great Tribulation) or whether it is God's wrath against Satan and his forces who attacked Israel and killed, beheaded and persecuted His people. As I said, the only "rapture" of 1 Thes 4 is for the remnant who are still alive and not killed during all this chaos.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Can any of you Rapturist tell me if scripture below will suddenly vanish from your bibles after you are raptured to heaven

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hello Wall,

Jesus is speaking about resurrection in the scripture above, not the spirit. Scripture makes it clear that at the time of death, the believers spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware, while the body decays in the earth.

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

So you can see from the scriptures above that, at the time of death the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. The resurrection however is different, as it refers to the body standing back up again. In the scripture that you quoted above, Jesus is saying that no man has ever died and resurrected and ascended into heaven, but he himself. Consequently, when the spirit departs from the body at the time of death to be with the Lord, this is not a resurrection. For the definition of the word "Anastasis" translated "Resurrection" properly means to "stand up again."

In conclusion, the scripture above is correct in that, no man has yet resurrected and ascended up into heaven, but the Lord Jesus.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Uh...

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The 1st one. So if those who are in this resurrection {the first} had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

Again, that group that you are mentioning above are the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been removed. Many of them will probably be those who claimed to be in Christ, but had gone back into the world, living according to the sinful nature and that day will have closed on them like a trap (Luke 21:34-36). They will most likely begin to spread the word of Christ and letting people know that they are now in the period of God's wrath and because of this many will come to Christ during that time of wrath.

Those who are being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints who will have died for their testimony of Jesus, the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor will have received his mark. They are not the only ones who are apart of the first resurrection, as Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection, then the church at his appearing, then the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and finally the GTS. "First" resurrection does not mean "Only" resurrection. The first resurrection includes all resurrections that take place prior the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years , which is a resurrection of the unrighteous.

 

[Wall]

Enoch and Elijah accended to heaven, so either Jesus was wrong, or He meant something else.
Those who die in Christ, are in heaven.

What Jesus said was plain as day

Genesis 5:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Says nothing about flittin off to heaven. Your speculating again

So you believe as soon as ya die you directly go to heaven or hell and then on JUDGEMENT day God rips ya out of heaven or hell and then throws ya back underground for the ressurection and then sends ya back to heaven or hell.

Only scripture ya got to back your belief

Absent from the body present with the Lord

 

[God4me]

Dear GodforMe,



Please show me a verse that says we will be in heaven (via rapture and not death) before the Great Tribulation.



Let's look at this verse:

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

What things are they to escape and how do they escape them? I already showed you. It says so back in verse 20 and in Mat 24 and 13. It's the same warning and same place to go to escape the Great Tribulation:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

All one who is living in Israel has to do to escape is flee to the mountains aka other nations. Then those ELECT who escape are gathered again by Christ when He returns.

...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Please tell me who are the ELECT Jews and who are the ELECT Christians and show me passages that shows how they are treated differently. In other words, show me a passage that states "ELECT Christians get Raptured before the attack on Israel while ELECT Jews are Left Behind to be slaughtered." I submit to you that there is no separate treatment. We are all grafted into one Olive Tree, see Romans 11.



I have to disagree here too. The Thessalonians were concerned that they might have missed the Second Coming. They weren't concerned about going through the Tribulation since they were already being persecuted. In speaking about Christ's one and only return, Paul says this:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped...

Paul makes clear that Christ WILL NOT come until the falling away (mass slaughter of Christians) AND the appearance of the Man of Sin. Go back a chapter and you will see that Christians are being persecuted and will NOT get their rest until Jesus is revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

There is no passage anywhere that discusses an earlier, or different return of Jesus. There is no return that has Christ removing people from earth and taking them to heaven alive. There is no concept taught of a tribulation saint vs any other saint.

We avoid God's wrath by leaving the affected areas. God wouldn't be telling us to leave if He was going to snatch us away.

Rev 18: [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Jer 51: [SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her! And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord.

There is no "fly away" to avoid anything coming on earth whether it is Satan doing it (Wrath of Satan, Great Tribulation) or whether it is God's wrath against Satan and his forces who attacked Israel and killed, beheaded and persecuted His people. As I said, the only "rapture" of 1 Thes 4 is for the remnant who are still alive and not killed during all this chaos.

Lk 21 is talking about the end times, including the tribulation period.
So we do go before the tribulation, unless you think Jesus is deceiving us.
The Elect in relation to the translation, are the elect Jews, not the Church.

Paul said the physical coming of Jesus won't come until the Church has gone and the man of sin is revealed.

The "Falling away" in 2 Thess, in the Greek, means
"A withdrawing, God's people being taken to heaven.
Then and then only can the antichrist come.

Jesus is coming in the pre trib rapture to take us to heaven. Matt 25: 1--14. Jn 13: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 17.
When Jesus comes back physically to reign, we come back with Him.
Also, there is no rapture when Jesus comes back to reign, or at the first resurrection in Rev 20. Proving that it's not the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 52 or 1 Thess 4: 16.