You cannot get away from 2 Kings 2: 11, where Elijah was taken to heaven.
Plus, check out these scriptures.
Lk 16: 19--25. 2 Cor 5: 1--8. Phil 1: 23.
Rev 6: 9.
Rev 7: 9--15.
THE RAPTURE
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You cannot get away from 2 Kings 2: 11, where Elijah was taken to heaven.
Plus, check out these scriptures.
Lk 16: 19--25. 2 Cor 5: 1--8. Phil 1: 23.
Rev 6: 9.
Rev 7: 9--15.
Wall, I don't know where you have received your information from, but your not making any sense. Only those who are in Christ, when they die do their spirits depart and go to be in the presence of the Lord. Those who are not in Christ, when they die, their spirits/souls depart from the body and go into Hades, the same place that the rich man went to and who is still in torment.
Those who die in Christ, at the time of the resurrection, the Lord will bring with him all of the souls who have died in Him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Those who are in Hades, will be resurrected out at the end of the thousand years and will stand at the great white throne judgment and will be judged for every sin they ever committed. Anyone at that resurrection whose name is not found written in the book of life will then be thrown into the lake of fire.
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popeye
Guest
Dude
Resurrection has to do with dead people coming to life.
Why is that concept so foreign to you?
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popeye
Guest
The first resurrection is simultaneous with the rapture.
The second resurrection is after the millennium.
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popeye
Guest
The very first resurrection is at the present trib rapture, the first resurrection after the tribulation, is those who get killed during the tribulation period, after the 1000 year reign.
The Church had already been raptured to heaven and came back with Jesus to Reign with Him during the 1000 year reign, before the Rev 20 resurrection.
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popeye
Guest
there is no resurrection of saints after the GT.
Rev 20;"this is the first resurrection" is referring to those killed,beheaded by the AC DURING the GT. It is referring BACK to that .
They are seen by John in heaven as an "innumerable number" early on in the GT.
The christians die right away,early on in the GT. There is no resurrection of saints after the GT.
Please note, there is no sign of Jesus coming for His Church, and there is no rapture at the resurrection in Rev 20, So it's not the same resurrection as those at the pre trib rapture.
Please note, those in Rev7: 9--15, we're raptured, not Kiled, so aren't those who are Resurrected in Rev 20.
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popeye
Guest
Never said they are the same.
First resurrection includes Jesus resurrection as first fruits.
Harvest is 4 parts.
First fruits
Main
Corners
Gleaners.
Takes a while to get it all done.
Without that dimension first resurrection can never be understood.
....and WHY a post trib/ post wrath resurrection is impossible. No such thing.
( until the end of the millennium )
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popeye
Guest
No,rev 7 is the martyrs. Read just a few sentences back and see that the martyrs were told that their number would shortly be completed. Those with WASHED ROBES,are the 5 foolish virgins if mat 25.
The wise need no washing. The virgin,in order to be brought to the kings chamber,had to be washed,and prepared.
Get it? Washed and prepared.
Those of rev 7 had dirty robes. They were washed via martyrdom. They are the same group of rev 20.
It even says "power was given the AC to overcome the saints"
It also says " all die without the mark"
Mat 25 has the bride taken TO THE MARRIAGE CHAMBER without your inference of a warzone .
But the foolish do indeed inherit your implied dimension.
Only a pre trib rapture fits.
No matter what folks try to fill in the blank with "he that withholds" ,the AC can not appear,until the "obstacle" is removed.
The time of the gentiles fulfilled. THEN THE FALSE CHRIST is allowed to appear. THEN he beheads saints.
You basically have,as a post trib adherent,the live saints preceding the dead,as you yourself place the first resurrection at the end of the GT.
...can not happen.
P
popeye
Guest
If every sequence is on the table,and every doctrine explored,only one stays standing.
Pretrib rapture.
Hands down. The only one surviving honest exegesis.
Systematic theology. No grand canyon jumps.
Pretrib rapture.
Hands down. The only one surviving honest exegesis.
Systematic theology. No grand canyon jumps.
Please note, those in Rev 6: 9. And Rev 20: 4, we're killed, but there is no mention of those in Rev 7: 9--15 being killed, and the reason is, they were raptured, they are those who go up at the mid trib rapture.
The wise virgins in Matt 25, went to the marriage feast, which is in heaven during the tribulations piriod.
The Church goes before the tribulation.
Hello God4Me,
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
This group in Rev.7:9-17, which are the great tribulation saints, is the same group that John sees in Rev.20:4-6. The fact that the elder tells John that they came out of the great tribulation, tells us that they were killed during that time. John sees them as those who will have been beheaded in Rev.20:4-6 and then he sees them come to life (resurrect). Also, there is nothing in the context that infers that this group is changed and caught up.
P
popeye
Guest
Just a few sentences before rev 7 the martyrs are told" untill your fellow servants are killed as you were"
Then we are told the AC KILLS every human on the planet w/o the mark.
They had dirty robes.
You have the main harvest,the wise virgins,with dirty robes......an impossibility
In mat 25 the foolish stayed behind. Roughly half the worldwide church.
The ones in rev 7 came out of the GT. The church is raptured before the GT.
REV 7 can not be those of the rapture. That is eliminated right away. You have to make that fit.
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popeye
Guest
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popeye
Guest
Those in Rev 6: 9, and those in Rev 20: 4, were killed, whereas those in Rev 7: 9--15, weren't killed, They were raptured to heaven in the mid trib rapture.
Please note, whenever the people were killed, in the book of Revelation, It said so, But it doesn't say they were killed in
Rev 7: 9--15.
Every Greek Bible scholar agree that Rev 7, is the Mid trib rapture.
That what I was thinking about you.
Only I have given you scriptures to support the fact that those in Rev 7, were raptured, not killed.
Godforme,
YES, AGREED 100%.
Please define "we." Is "we" the non-Jewish Christians not living in and around Israel? If so, I AGREE, we will not be going through the Great Tribulation as that happens to Israel. Only those in Judea are told to flee.
I'm still in agreement
. The ELECT of Mat 24 are the ELECT, CHRISTIAN JEWS living in Judea prior to the GREAT TRIBULATION. Some flee, some remain during the attack on Israel (AKA, the Great Tribulation).
Wow, we are still in agreement!!! But does Paul say how the Church leaves???? Does he say they are flown off the planet in the Rapture, or killed? He doesn't say in this passage, right?
Here is where we disagree. The word is "apostasia." Do not confuse this with "harpazo" which is the catching up of 1 Thes 4. These have different meanings and they are different events entirely. Here, in 2 Thes 2 there is a "falling away from the truth" not a rapture to heaven. See 646 below:
What does Paul say right before this?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) will not come unless the falling away comes first...
There will be a DECEPTION concerning the TIMING OF THE DAY OF CHRIST. Now please turn to Mat 24. Christ in His own words says this:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
The very first thing Jesus tells us when He begins to answer the question concerning the times of the end is about the DECEPTION. Can you see that??? Jesus tells us of this DECEPTION THREE TIMES!!
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Since He tells us three times of there being a DECEPTION concerning the TIMING of His Coming and His identity (because they go together) we had better pay attention.
Right now there are Hundreds of Millions of Christians who believe the REAL CHRIST comes BEFORE the Great Tribulation and appearance of the Man of Sin. Both Jesus and Paul warn us specifically that THIS IS NOT TRUE!! Instead deceivers will come first claiming to be CHRIST. These DECEIVERS are Satanic and have amazing powers.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Can you see that they have great power and show great signs for the purpose of deception??? Fortunately the ELECT (which are the CHOSEN few) are not deceived but hundreds of millions of Christians are already deceived about the timing so when these "messengers" come claiming to be the angels of Christ sent to take us, DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!! Christ tells us exactly how it will go down:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!! The reason we are NOT TO BELIEVE is because Jesus says in the next verse that when He comes, He comes so fast, like lightening, and when this happens you won't have time to think.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The reason I write so often and passionately about this subject is because I know the truth and I see where so many of my brothers and sisters have already been deceived into thinking Christ comes before all this bad stuff to take them away. The truth is they have fallen for the lie in advance. THE LIE started in 1830 and today is rampant throughout the church. Because I (and others) have been given the love of the truth, and we know that we need "extra oil" as the 5 wise virgins who realize the Groom will be delayed, we try to correct you and others who are predisposed to believe THE LIE concerning the timing of Christ's return.
It is all about the timing. There are two truths that will save us from being deceived, 1) knowing that correct timing, 2) knowing that when Christ comes, He comes with no warning or announcement. These demons who claim to be angels of God will come at the same time all around the world and fool Christians into going with them to "Christ" but it isn't Christ they will be taken too.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Pre-Trib, Pre-Man of Sin Rapture Doctrine is THE LIE. This is what causes the "apostasia" or Falling Away from the Truth.
YES, AGREED 100%.
Please define "we." Is "we" the non-Jewish Christians not living in and around Israel? If so, I AGREE, we will not be going through the Great Tribulation as that happens to Israel. Only those in Judea are told to flee.
I'm still in agreement
. The ELECT of Mat 24 are the ELECT, CHRISTIAN JEWS living in Judea prior to the GREAT TRIBULATION. Some flee, some remain during the attack on Israel (AKA, the Great Tribulation).Wow, we are still in agreement!!! But does Paul say how the Church leaves???? Does he say they are flown off the planet in the Rapture, or killed? He doesn't say in this passage, right?
Here is where we disagree. The word is "apostasia." Do not confuse this with "harpazo" which is the catching up of 1 Thes 4. These have different meanings and they are different events entirely. Here, in 2 Thes 2 there is a "falling away from the truth" not a rapture to heaven. See 646 below:
What does Paul say right before this?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) will not come unless the falling away comes first...
There will be a DECEPTION concerning the TIMING OF THE DAY OF CHRIST. Now please turn to Mat 24. Christ in His own words says this:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
The very first thing Jesus tells us when He begins to answer the question concerning the times of the end is about the DECEPTION. Can you see that??? Jesus tells us of this DECEPTION THREE TIMES!!
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Since He tells us three times of there being a DECEPTION concerning the TIMING of His Coming and His identity (because they go together) we had better pay attention.
Right now there are Hundreds of Millions of Christians who believe the REAL CHRIST comes BEFORE the Great Tribulation and appearance of the Man of Sin. Both Jesus and Paul warn us specifically that THIS IS NOT TRUE!! Instead deceivers will come first claiming to be CHRIST. These DECEIVERS are Satanic and have amazing powers.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Can you see that they have great power and show great signs for the purpose of deception??? Fortunately the ELECT (which are the CHOSEN few) are not deceived but hundreds of millions of Christians are already deceived about the timing so when these "messengers" come claiming to be the angels of Christ sent to take us, DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!! Christ tells us exactly how it will go down:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!! The reason we are NOT TO BELIEVE is because Jesus says in the next verse that when He comes, He comes so fast, like lightening, and when this happens you won't have time to think.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The reason I write so often and passionately about this subject is because I know the truth and I see where so many of my brothers and sisters have already been deceived into thinking Christ comes before all this bad stuff to take them away. The truth is they have fallen for the lie in advance. THE LIE started in 1830 and today is rampant throughout the church. Because I (and others) have been given the love of the truth, and we know that we need "extra oil" as the 5 wise virgins who realize the Groom will be delayed, we try to correct you and others who are predisposed to believe THE LIE concerning the timing of Christ's return.
It is all about the timing. There are two truths that will save us from being deceived, 1) knowing that correct timing, 2) knowing that when Christ comes, He comes with no warning or announcement. These demons who claim to be angels of God will come at the same time all around the world and fool Christians into going with them to "Christ" but it isn't Christ they will be taken too.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Pre-Trib, Pre-Man of Sin Rapture Doctrine is THE LIE. This is what causes the "apostasia" or Falling Away from the Truth.
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Rev 6: 9 and Rev 20: 4, does say they were killed, But not those in Rev 7: 9--15. And whenever they were killed in the book of Revelation, it said so, But it doesn't in Rev 7.
The difference between the virgins in Matt 25, and the people in Rev 7, is, The virgins are Pre-trib, and those in Rev 7, are Mid trib