THE RAPTURE

[Wall]

The wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Nope.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Verse 8&9 looks pretty wrathful to me. Its after the Lord comes

 

[WarriorForChrist]

You know I was raised believing in the rapture. I don't study it and probably never will. If there isn't a rapture so be it. It isn't like the Christians who don't believe in the rapture are doing some sort of end of days workout that keeps them any safer. It seems to me that people who are against the rapture seem to think Christians who believe in it aren't going to be prepared or something.

 

[popeye]

How about the first century? Because I get the teaching regarding Christ's appearing to gather the church from Paul who got it directly from the Lord. In reference to 1830, you are just repeating what you have heard other people use as an apologetic. Scofield and others is not where we are getting this information from.

Absolutely.

I wonder if they,under their template,also reject the doctrine of salvation since many books have been written on the subject.

 

[popeye]

You know I was raised believing in the rapture. I don't study it and probably never will. If there isn't a rapture so be it. It isn't like the Christians who don't believe in the rapture are doing some sort of end of days workout that keeps them any safer. It seems to me that people who are against the rapture seem to think Christians who believe in it aren't going to be prepared or something.

" watch" refers to watching for Jesus.

Post tribs watch for antichrist.

That alone should wake up the most stubborn debater.

Nope

 

[popeye]

Nope.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Verse 8&9 looks pretty wrathful to me. Its after the Lord comes

Jacobs trouble precedes the second coming . Both sides believe that.

 

[Wall]

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee
The wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Nope.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Verse 8&9 looks pretty wrathful to me. Its after the Lord comes

Ill bet you made that statement because if the Lord was here during the wrath the so called raptured would have to be here on earth with Him during that wrath. Am i right.

 

[popeye]

There are seven raptures in the Bible, Three have already happened, Enoch, Gen 5: 24. Elijah 2 Kings 2: 11.
and Jesus. Acts 1: 9--11.
The next raptures is the PRE-TRIB rapture, Matt 25: 1--13. Jn 14: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 15--17
[Your disbelief of it, doesn't change the fact].
Then there are three more raptures after the Church is in heaven, The 144,000, Rev 7: 1--8. then those who get saved during the tribulation period, [The Mid tribers], Rev 7: 9--15.
then the two witnesses. Rev 11: 3--12.

So it isn't based on our own beliefs, opinions or interpretations, [That's where you went wrong], as it's based on the scriptures.

There is a pre-trib, a mid trib, But you couldn't have seen a post trib rapture, Because the Bible doesn't teach is.
When Jesus physically comes back to reign with His people, There is no rapture, And where could they be raptured to??, Jesus isn't going back to heaven once He comes to reign, Yet every rapture, is people being taken to heaven.

Pretty much so.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

It is just as easy to show post trib rapture as a hands down,absolute,impossibility

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee
The wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.




Ill bet you made that statement because if the Lord was here during the wrath the so called raptured would have to be here on earth with Him during that wrath. Am i right.

They ride with him.

You have no point

 

[Blain]

Ahwatukee, there was something I noticed after a discussion with you some time ago. Going to TRY to explain it.
There is a verse I remember reading once, that says, to people saying: when will thed ay of the Lord come - you don't have any idea what you're asking for! Because that will be an awful day, clouds, gloom, etc.

And yet, we are told to hasten the day He comes for us and are told to look for His appearing and to love His appearing, etc.

THese are two of those things that seem to be in tension to each other - these things that people debate over, with each side taking one verse to exclusion of the verse(s) that seem to contradict them.

So...if we are to hasten, love and look for His appearing AND YET those who said they wanted the day oft he Lord to be here already are told that is an awful thing to want to come and that they had no IDEA what they were saying, then these are two different things!

Anyway, I meant to tell you but couldn't find the thread again so I'm glad I rememberedt o tell you now that I found you again!

Yes this is true, many people want all of this to happen people even hope and get excited when they see signs of the end coming however we don't realize how bad it's going to be. I have seen what is coming and it's only because I was shown what is coming that I know in my heart how lucky we truly are right now. even just last night at 1 am as I was going on a walk talking with God and as the wind gently blowing and was cool on my face and as I sat next to a tree in a field of grass in the beauty of the night and the moon making the grass slightly shimmer as it was gently being blown by the wind I began to pour tears knowing that this storm that I saw is coming faster than we think and that moments such as that and beauty that I was seeing at that moment would be gone forever in this world.

I speak the utter truth when I say it is only when this storm arrives that people will realize just how good we have it right now and people will look back on these days as a fond memory knowing things will never again be the same. these times when we can laugh and enjoy each other where we can go on walks in peace and safety where can enjoy a movie with loved ones where we can sit at home and just relax are short and this is why it hurts so deeply when I remember what was shown to me

 

[Wall]

Pretty much so.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

It is just as easy to show post trib rapture as a hands down,absolute,impossibility

So why havent you been able to defend the pretrb rature?

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

So why havent you been able to defend the pretrb rature?

Prophecy Update 2011-08-07
Prophecy Update 2011-08-14
Prophecy Update 2011-08-21
Prophecy Update 2011-08-28
Prophecy Update 2011-09-04
Prophecy Update 2011-09-11
Prophecy Update 2011-09-18

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

well then, by believing that they are the same events, you have a big problem.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

So tell us, do you believe in what the two verses above are saying? If so, then here is your problem: The wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. That said, according to your belief, those living believers in the church would have to go through the entire seven years of God's wrath, which contradicts the above scriptures. By your belief, you are also not believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and thereby you are not honoring his sacrifice for us, because you have God pouring his wrath out on the church, which Christ already suffered for.

The other problems that you have with your belief is that, you are not understanding that Rev.19:6-8 shows that the bride/church is already in heaven receiving her white clothing, fine and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the fine linen, white and clean that she received in Rev.19:6-8.

Wall, I am just trying to help you understand that what you are believing is not the correct interpretation. These things are the deeper truths of study that the Holy Spirit reveals. The church must and will be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out, which is why it is called "the blessed hope." The gathering of the church certainly would not be a "Blessed hope" if we had to go through God's wrath. Believers have been reconciled to God through the blood of Christ and we therefore no longer under his wrath i.e. we have been brought back into a right relationship with him. Therefore, to say that God is going to send us who have been credited with righteousness and who have been reconciled to God, that he is going to send us through his wrath, this would not be in God's nature to do so. For God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There IS a verse in which God says He will punish the righteous along with the wicked. I think it might be...Ezekiel. Have you seen it? I believe it ties in to the verse in Rev that describes 4 different types of men - wicked, filthy, righteous, holy...
I also believe that this verse ties in: pray that you be counted worthy to escape the time of testing coming on the whole world to test it.

 

[popeye]

So why havent you been able to defend the pretrb rature?

What specifically do you have in mind.

Take any point. Lets talk

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Nope.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Verse 8&9 looks pretty wrathful to me. Its after the Lord comes

Hi walls. I have been reading and enjoying your posts even though we see some differently.
Do you think it is a possibility that there can be a division of time between some verses other than the one where Jesus stood up in the gathering and read and cut it off midsentence?

 

[Wall]

Hi walls. I have been reading and enjoying your posts even though we see some differently.
Do you think it is a possibility that there can be a division of time between some verses other than the one where Jesus stood up in the gathering and read and cut it off midsentence?

Yes, anything is possible. What specifically are you refering to.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, anything is possible. What specifically are you refering to.

No one verse in particular at the moment.
I just wondered if it ever happened that you were reading (even in the NT sometimes) and...saw verses that were comforting that then seemed to abruptly take a turn. Like that one from Isaiah.

I just always wonder when I see that if there is some division of time and a division of events instead of it being...contiguous like my mind sees it.

I guess in the verses of Thess you quoted, this is one of those that seems to do that...the apostle is saying take comfort and then what follows seems comforting and then BAM! it suddenly is NOT comforting.

 

[popeye]

Prophecy Update 2011-08-07
Prophecy Update 2011-08-14
Prophecy Update 2011-08-21
Prophecy Update 2011-08-28
Prophecy Update 2011-09-04
Prophecy Update 2011-09-11
Prophecy Update 2011-09-18

The links don't work from my phone

 

[popeye]

You think the Day of the Lord begins with the 7 yrs of tribulation. Scripture says otherwise

MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

{verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
{verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

[24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

ACTS 2[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME:

As found in Joel; found in the book of Acts

[FONT=&quot]There can be no doubt. Joel and Mark and Acts are speaking of the same event. The book of Acts & Joel says the the sun will be darkened BEFORE the "day of the Lord". Mark says the sun will be darkened AFTER the tribulation. How can anyone claim the great tribulation period to be part of the "day of the Lord" if the "day of the Lord" doesnt begin till AFTER the tribulation? [/FONT]

Again,nothing about the first redurrection

 

[PlainWord]

Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period.
The Jews and the back sliders will go through the tribulation period.
We need to know when Jesus is talking to the elect Jews, and when He is talking to the elect Church.
Jesus tells us that we can escape the tribulation period, and we AREN'T appointed to wrath, ( And tell tribulation period is the wrath of satan and the wrath of God ).

I cannot understand why people want to tribute, when Jesus said we won't go through it.

The first thing you need to understand is the difference between the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath. They most certainly are NOT the same thing. The Great Tribulation is the all out attack on Israel by Satan's Islamic forces to Israel's north. When the Abomination of Desolation is seen, who are told to flee?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Only those in Judea are told to flee. And why do they have to flee? It's simple, because they come under full attack as we are told in Eze 38:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land...

You see, the above is the Great Tribulation and it coincides with the warning to flee Judea. This attack is what provokes God to wrath as we see further in Eze 38:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken...

You are correct, we are not appointed to God's wrath but we are certainly appointed to Tribulation. Jesus Himself tells us we are appointed to tribulation (small "t"). This idea that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath and that it is Global and therefore we must be raptured off the planet to avoid God's wrath is utter nonsense and a fabrication of man. The Rapture, is for the remnant, those not killed. Paul tells us this in 1 Thes 4:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

See that? Alive and remain!!! What do you think they are alive and remaining from? A day at the beach?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is the ELECT who have survived that are gathered. The vast majority of Christians have been killed long before this. The killing of Christians starts in big numbers before the Great Tribulation of Israel. How do you think the Martyrs of the 5th seal get to heaven? Why are we shown the Great Multitude of Rev 7?

Christians are under assault BEFORE and during the Great Tribulation and there are many passages that teach this. When will my brothers and sisters wake up to this truth?

Mat 24: [SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake... [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Rev 12: ...and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13: [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

Dan 11: ...but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

Rev 11: [SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Israel and the Church (the Two Witnesses) will come under massive assault and will be slaughtered in huge numbers as we see here.

Rev 7: ...and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb... So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Unless God shortens the days of Satan's Great Tribulation, no flesh would be left alive. It is the remnant, those who are still alive and remaining that are "raptured" in 1 Thes 4:17.

 

[popeye]

So what your saying is, its only through speculation {puzzleing} that you go to heaven after you are changed in the twinkling of an eye. And it is based on John14:2.

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

Well Ahwatukeee, you do see what Jesus said dont you? We are not allowed to go to heaven but Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also


[FONT=&quot]REVELATION 21 [1] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth[/FONT]

ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] THUS SAITH THE LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

The new Jerusalem {many mansions} will be in Zion, in the midst of old Jerusalem. Its there He will “bring” us in the twinkling of an eye. Not to heaven as you claim

Ahwatukee, think about this. In Zech.8:7&8 the Lord says He will save His people from places on this here earth. And then its off to Jerusalem for the Kingdom rest. You claim they come heaven

And yet at the last supper he says he will meet us there.

What do you do with rev 19? Saints in heaven,on white horses,and marriage supper completed.

Uh,they got there via the 1st resurrection and catching away.

You know,the stuff you are mysteriously omitting