There is only one way a person gets to the current spiritual heaven and that is by dying.
THE RAPTURE
- Thread starter Wall
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Godforme,
YES, AGREED 100%.
Please define "we." Is "we" the non-Jewish Christians not living in and around Israel? If so, I AGREE, we will not be going through the Great Tribulation as that happens to Israel. Only those in Judea are told to flee.
I'm still in agreement. The ELECT of Mat 24 are the ELECT, CHRISTIAN JEWS living in Judea prior to the GREAT TRIBULATION. Some flee, some remain during the attack on Israel (AKA, the Great Tribulation).
Wow, we are still in agreement!!! But does Paul say how the Church leaves???? Does he say they are flown off the planet in the Rapture, or killed? He doesn't say in this passage, right?
Here is where we disagree. The word is "apostasia." Do not confuse this with "harpazo" which is the catching up of 1 Thes 4. These have different meanings and they are different events entirely. Here, in 2 Thes 2 there is a "falling away from the truth" not a rapture to heaven. See 646 below:
View attachment 155806
What does Paul say right before this?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) will not come unless the falling away comes first...
There will be a DECEPTION concerning the TIMING OF THE DAY OF CHRIST. Now please turn to Mat 24. Christ in His own words says this:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
The very first thing Jesus tells us when He begins to answer the question concerning the times of the end is about the DECEPTION. Can you see that??? Jesus tells us of this DECEPTION THREE TIMES!!
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Since He tells us three times of there being a DECEPTION concerning the TIMING of His Coming and His identity (because they go together) we had better pay attention.
Right now there are Hundreds of Millions of Christians who believe the REAL CHRIST comes BEFORE the Great Tribulation and appearance of the Man of Sin. Both Jesus and Paul warn us specifically that THIS IS NOT TRUE!! Instead deceivers will come first claiming to be CHRIST. These DECEIVERS are Satanic and have amazing powers.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Can you see that they have great power and show great signs for the purpose of deception??? Fortunately the ELECT (which are the CHOSEN few) are not deceived but hundreds of millions of Christians are already deceived about the timing so when these "messengers" come claiming to be the angels of Christ sent to take us, DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!! Christ tells us exactly how it will go down:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!! The reason we are NOT TO BELIEVE is because Jesus says in the next verse that when He comes, He comes so fast, like lightening, and when this happens you won't have time to think.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The reason I write so often and passionately about this subject is because I know the truth and I see where so many of my brothers and sisters have already been deceived into thinking Christ comes before all this bad stuff to take them away. The truth is they have fallen for the lie in advance. THE LIE started in 1830 and today is rampant throughout the church. Because I (and others) have been given the love of the truth, and we know that we need "extra oil" as the 5 wise virgins who realize the Groom will be delayed, we try to correct you and others who are predisposed to believe THE LIE concerning the timing of Christ's return.
It is all about the timing. There are two truths that will save us from being deceived, 1) knowing that correct timing, 2) knowing that when Christ comes, He comes with no warning or announcement. These demons who claim to be angels of God will come at the same time all around the world and fool Christians into going with them to "Christ" but it isn't Christ they will be taken too.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Pre-Trib, Pre-Man of Sin Rapture Doctrine is THE LIE. This is what causes the "apostasia" or Falling Away from the Truth.
The Greek meaning for, "Falling away", in 2 Thess 2, is, "A departing, a withdrawing", Please note, It doesn't say
a falling away "FROM THE FAITH", does it?. False teachers mislead people about falling away.
and v6--7 tells us that we are holding back the antichrist,
and we will do, until we are taken out of the way, [The pre-trib rapture].
If the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus, How is he going to handle millions who are just like Jesus??, And we will be just like Jesus just before He comes for us. Eph 5: 27. 1 Jn 3: 2--3.
That's why we HAVE to go before the antichrist can come.
In order to hold on to this rapture doctrine ive seen someone say Jesus's words were wrong and He didnt know what He was saying. They claim the "last" trumpet aint really the last trumpet. Above we see words added to scripture that are not there. The bible does not say THE GREAT TRIBULATION
Revelation 7:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
How far will you guys go?
This is truly fascinating...!
So the first fruits would be Jesus and the dead they saw walking around after His resurrection.
Main would be the gathering together in the air.
Third and fourth would be...the two reapings in Rev?
If you read the book of Revelation, you'll see that the Church has been taken to heaven BEFORE the FIRST trumpet sounded, Never mind the last trumpet.
The "Last trump", I 1 Cor 15: 52, Is the last trumpet the Church will hear, while on the earth, It's our calling to heaven trumpet and has nothing to do with the trumpets in the great tribulation period.
Those in Rev 7, are those who are the MID Trib raptured people who get taken during the great tribulation period.
So please answer this question {any of you Rapturist}. Which resurrction is the one found in scripture below
EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.
[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Its the gathering of Gods people, The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.
[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
One shepherd.
[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom
SO WHICH RESURRECTION IS IT? The 1st or is it the 2nd
P
popeye
Guest
Yes. I believe so.
I also believe the 144 k are the fitstfruit Jews,and those gathered in rev 14 are the Jews invited to the wedding.
His first miracle was at a wedding with Jews.
His last miracle is at a wedding with Jews.
I think "you have saved the best for last" is referring to those coming in lastly. They happen to be Jewish.
P
popeye
Guest
Sounds like a Jewish gathering.
The dead in CHRIST,the rapture,is mostly gentile,and they definitely go to heaven. Mat 25,the last supper,rev 19.
Your group from the OT go directly to Jerusalem.
But you just made the claim that there were only 2 resurrections. Is it the 1st or 2nd?
P
popeye
Guest
Then the 5 foolish should have been let in with the rest since they did procure the missing ingrediant,and,as you say,they entered anyway,EXACTLY AS THE WISE.
Too big of a jump,since the AC SLAUGHTERS BILLIONS OF BELIEVERS at the start of the GT. ( An innumerable number)
You are ignoring all my points,just to say "raptured clean,... dirty robes is a fluke"
You do know that martyrdom is a high reward?
You also seem to skip what was told the martyrs under the altar".....till your brethren,who also die as martyrs be fulfilled"
That is just prior to those of rev 7.
It is compelling if added up.
But just skip it sir. Doesn't matter till you systematically add it up.
Second rapture will do for now sir.
Rolleyes
Just read Rev.19 and Matt.25 and most of it corcerned the Bride of Christ. Talk about a Jewish gathering
JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
Israel is the bride
JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
Israel the bride
JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:
Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?
LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.
Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.
REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:
Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.
P
popeye
Guest
Main.
There have been several
There will be more.
I think you are more"gotcha" oriented than doctrine oriented.
P
popeye
Guest
Your OT VERSE has the JEWS going directly to Jerusalem. I am guessing it refers to the present day re habitation of Israel. Just a guess.
I showed you the actual translation from Strong's. Here it is again. It could mean a falling away from faith. It could mean a deception of sorts. What it doesn't mean is a rapture.
Again, Paul tells us very strongly to NOT BE DECEIVED concerning the sequence or timing of when Christ returns. Paul makes clear that Christ WILL NOT return until after the "falling away" and appearance of the Man of Sin. I agree that which is restraining is most likely the Church because if the church is here in big numbers, the Man of Sin would have a hard time fooling people.
You think the Church is caught up in a rapture. I think the Church is deceived and slaughtered in huge numbers. As crazy as my view sounds, scripture is telling us that many will come saying they are Christ and deceive many. Just what do you think happens to those who are deceived? I'll tell you, they are killed and end up as the Great Multitude in Heaven. This is why the GM is in heaven crying and happy for salvation - because they were deceived and went after the false christs.
He deceives us, that's how. He wages war with us, deceives us and overcomes us.
The GM have their robes washed and are now without blame.
P
popeye
Guest
I do not try to study end times to understand the ot.
The OT is a guide of illumination,not a target to emphasize
The OT is a guide of illumination,not a target to emphasize
P
popeye
Guest
The bible says first,and second
So take it up with the king. I just report his deal,and can explain very little of it
P
popeye
Guest
Wow,get the champaign. We agree on the robe thinggy ( I think LOL)
IF It warnt for all the pretrin rapture verses,you could possibly make me your disciple!
Naaaah
Lol
The five foolish virgins were Christiana but they were backslIden and missed the rapture.
The antichrist doesn't kill billions of
Christians, (The Church ), we aren't here during the tribulations period, the Jews and the back sliders are among those who are killed.
I have shown you what falling away means.
Please note, it doesn't say falling away from " THE FAITH" does it? No.
Vs 6--7, shows us that we have to go before the antichrist can come.
If Paul said don't be deceived, why have you? ?
The Church won't be deceived, as we won't be here at that time.