Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
- Thread starter LW97
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What I see in the Greek is that the following two verses are written in pretty much the same way; that is,
Matthew 24:10 doesn't have the phrase "from the faith," that I can see (just like the verse below):
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-10.htm
Matthew 26:31 -
"Then Jesus says to them, "You all will fall away [G4624] because of Me during this night. For it has been written: 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/26-31.htm
[quoting from BibleHub]
"b. "to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey; to cause to fall away," and in the passive, to fall away (R. V. to stumble (cf. 'Teaching etc. 16, 5 [ET]; Hermas, vis. 4, 1, 3 [ET]; mand. 8, 10 [ET])): τινα, John 6:61; passive, Matthew 13:21; Matthew 24:10; Matthew 26:33; Mark 4:17; Mark 14:29"
[end quoting; bold mine]
It seems more likely that 24:10 is saying, "many shall turn away from those bringing the particular message of Truth [during that time of great deception, due to those troubles just listed ("the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" AND what is said to occur in Verse 9
)]"--and that would be the particular msg of Matt24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom" (and the fact that it will, at that point, be nearing)__________
[quoting from BlueLetterBible]
"Outline of Biblical Usage -
"to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
to entice to sin
to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
to cause to fall away
to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
to cause one displeasure at a thing
to make indignant
to be displeased, indignant "
[end quoting]
[again, for the readers (to be clear): my view is that the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of the tribulation period (future, specific, limited time period [leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth]) that will commence to unfold following our Rapture/Departure and is not covering the Subject of our Rapture/Departure]
False and there is no twisting and turning on my part. You don’t understand because you teach works salvation.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous.” James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous before God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.."The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous.” James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous before God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.."The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.
James, an inspired servant of God is not saying 'faith that is not evidenced by works' can not save you, he is saying faith alone doesn't save a man. But you are here teaching that salvation is by faith alone.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
You still don’t get it. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
So I am not teaching that man is saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - “barren of works.” Man is saved by faith that “trusts in Christ alone for salvation” and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You cannot seem to grasp the difference.
So if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit produced at all demonstrates there is no root.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
So I am not teaching that man is saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - “barren of works.” Man is saved by faith that “trusts in Christ alone for salvation” and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You cannot seem to grasp the difference.
So if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit produced at all demonstrates there is no root.
-
3
- Show all
1 Timothy 5:20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Notice a brother who wanders from the truth is labeled a "sinner"
His label as "righteousness" was changed to "sinner" when he wandered from the truth.
James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
The brother who wandered from the truth was not righteous anymore as stated in this scripture-
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The (righteous) shall live by faith.”
The brother who wandered from the truth became a "sinner" again
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the (sons of disobedience).
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
SIN LEADS TO DEATH OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS
If we say we KNOW him and do not keep his commandments we are liars and the TRUTH is not in us.
If we ABIDE in him, we need to walk as he walked.
1 John 2:3-6
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Notice a brother who wanders from the truth is labeled a "sinner"
His label as "righteousness" was changed to "sinner" when he wandered from the truth.
James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
The brother who wandered from the truth was not righteous anymore as stated in this scripture-
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The (righteous) shall live by faith.”
The brother who wandered from the truth became a "sinner" again
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the (sons of disobedience).
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
SIN LEADS TO DEATH OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS
If we say we KNOW him and do not keep his commandments we are liars and the TRUTH is not in us.
If we ABIDE in him, we need to walk as he walked.
1 John 2:3-6
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
And just to add a thought to my prior post (which I've stated before, but will help clarify here)...
I believe those who will be bringing the particular msg of Matt24:14 ('this gospel of the kingdom' [also 26:13]) will be the believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib years [following our Rapture/Departure]); and are the same ones being called "the least of these My brethren" in 25:40 (who are not among those BEING judged/separated in the "Sheep and goat judgment of the nationS [plural]"), and who the "nationS" will have either "BLESSED" [/aided] (and thus will themselves be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord), or will NOT have "blessed" [/aided] (and thus will themselves be called "ye CURSED" by our Lord; recall where else these two words are used in the OT, in proximity and regarding Israel, just as here).
This will be during a time of grave persecution (and great deception) so to aid these will put people at great risk to themselves (in the same way that Matthew 26:31 speaks of, because of Jesus' arrest and those grave circumstances, at that time in the past) [per v.24:9 esp, but also vv.4-8's "beginning of birth PANGS" (equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6)]
It seems more likely that 24:10 is saying, "many shall turn away from those bringing the particular message of Truth [during that time of great deception, due to those troubles just listed ("the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" AND what is said to occur in Verse 9 )]"--and that would be the particular msg of Matt24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom" (and the fact that it will, at that point, be nearing)
)]"--and that would be the particular msg of Matt24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom" (and the fact that it will, at that point, be nearing)
This will be during a time of grave persecution (and great deception) so to aid these will put people at great risk to themselves (in the same way that Matthew 26:31 speaks of, because of Jesus' arrest and those grave circumstances, at that time in the past) [per v.24:9 esp, but also vv.4-8's "beginning of birth PANGS" (equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6)]
What is being addressed here?
Doomed ....... failed ...... sarcasm
Sinners are doomed to judgement without cleansing and forgiveness, the lake of fire.
A repentant sinner who in faith accepts Christs showing fruit of repentance they will be saved.
The divide being presented is Jesus is seen or we are seen. Change is not part of this equation, it is just Jesus
or us, sinful us. This assumes there is not redemption, cleansing or being made whole. No one
is ever in Gods sight righteous in this view. So our only hope is God seeing Jesus instead.
If Jesus truly cleanses us and makes us whole, while we abide in Him, things are different.
God sees Jesus's work in us, His cleansing and purifying work that makes us whole.
If God sees us purified and made Holy the choice is saint or sinner, not Jesus or self.
These are different theologies and views of redemption, sanctification and our dwelling in Jesus.
And to us the redeemed, to suggest cleansing and making whole is impossible, we are just hypocritical
liars and deceivers is clearly not a friendly position to take. But it is what it is.
Let the light of God shine, for what is hidden will be made plain.
Doomed ....... failed ...... sarcasm
Sinners are doomed to judgement without cleansing and forgiveness, the lake of fire.
A repentant sinner who in faith accepts Christs showing fruit of repentance they will be saved.
The divide being presented is Jesus is seen or we are seen. Change is not part of this equation, it is just Jesus
or us, sinful us. This assumes there is not redemption, cleansing or being made whole. No one
is ever in Gods sight righteous in this view. So our only hope is God seeing Jesus instead.
If Jesus truly cleanses us and makes us whole, while we abide in Him, things are different.
God sees Jesus's work in us, His cleansing and purifying work that makes us whole.
If God sees us purified and made Holy the choice is saint or sinner, not Jesus or self.
These are different theologies and views of redemption, sanctification and our dwelling in Jesus.
And to us the redeemed, to suggest cleansing and making whole is impossible, we are just hypocritical
liars and deceivers is clearly not a friendly position to take. But it is what it is.
Let the light of God shine, for what is hidden will be made plain.
Hold your horses there partner. We are saved not will be saved. We are saved according to Gods mercy and it is a continuing action by the grace of God. Saved today, saved tomorrow and saved for eternity. Past, present and future sins all covered by the blood of Christ. Sealed unto the day of redemption.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
-
2
-
1
- Show all
"i am sick" a revelation, amen, I could not have said it better myself, you need a physician.
It is always easier if we refer to a truthful definition of passages and different views and then
express where we are within these views. It is disparaging to suggest individuals are not consistent
in their view when one just refuses to admit this is a valid interpretation of the words as written.
It is always easier if we refer to a truthful definition of passages and different views and then
express where we are within these views. It is disparaging to suggest individuals are not consistent
in their view when one just refuses to admit this is a valid interpretation of the words as written.
-
1
- Show all