Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[FreeGrace2]

A person dies in unbelief because they were not one of Christs sheep that He died for Jn 10:26

Nonsense. A person dies in unbelief because they refused to believe.

Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

While Calvinists will deny this, believing or refusing to believe the gospel is a choice that man is free to make.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

oh brother!!! You seriously believe the words "He took on Him the seed of Abraham" means the Lord Jesus Christ "died only for the elect"???

Yes along with Vs 17 to make reconciliation for the sins of the people

…

The writer uses the definite article for the sins and the people, the work of reconciliation /propitiation was for the definite sins of a definite people.

That People, Gods Elect, the Seed of Abraham

vs 17 corroborates what is written in vs 16 ... that the Lord Jesus Christ came to save mankind ... not angels.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham


There really is no difference between what is written in Phil 2:7 (that the Lord Jesus Christ was made in the likeness of men) and Heb 2:16 (that the Lord Jesus Christ took on Him the seed of Abraham) other than the fact that Philippians was written to gentiles and Hebrews was written to Jews.

The point in both records is the Lord Jesus Christ is the savior of the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ is not the savior of angels.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

nope. I believe Scripture just as it is written by the Author.

I believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for all the sin of all mankind, just as is written in Scripture:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No you dont, you see it as carnal reason wants it to be, you promote Justification/Salvation by works friend.

nope ... I have submitted post after post stating that justification is through faith just as is written in Scripture. You know it ... I know it ... all who have followed this thread know it..

I believe God when He tells me the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. I believe God when He tells me He reveals Himself to all mankind and yet some suppress the truth ... in suppressing the truth, they reject God.

No you dont believe God in regard to 1 Jn 2:2, you deny it. How can Justified people go to hell for their sins ?

Where have I ever stated "justified people go to hell for their sins ?"

That is your dilemma because your erroneous dogma refuses to acknowledge what is written in Scripture:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

You dont even understand 1 Jn 2:2, and would be wise for you to let it alone

Is that what you tell folks? Just ignore Scripture because you "dont even understand it" ?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The verse is not difficult to comprehend. You find it difficult because you try to align the verse with your erroneous dogma ... and that is not the appropriate approach to Scripture.

We are not to align Scripture to our dogma. We are to align our dogma to Scripture and where our dogma is in error, we are to let go of the error ... that is what you are struggling with. You won't let go of your error, even though you have been shown on this thread and others at this site that you are in error. sucks for you ...

You, on the other hand, must manipulate Scripture in order to conclude that "the whole world" means "world of the elect".

Thats exactly what the whole world means in 1 Jn 2:2

nope ...

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The reference to "our sins" = the sins of born again believers. Those who are already justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The reference to "but also the sins of the whole world" = those who are not born again.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

nope ... the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... the whole world:

You saying Christs death was worthless.

wow ... what a lie from the pit ... I have never said anything close to what you claim.

that claim is just as ludicrous as your claim that "faith = works" and "faith puts [me] under the law" and "those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners".


Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

If a person dies in their sins in unbelief, it means they suppressed/restrained the truth in unrighteousness ... just as God tells us in Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Those Christ died for, His death put away their unbelief and all their unrighteousness. Heb 8:12

Heb 8:12 relates to the New Covenant ... no born again one is under God's wrath. Those who are under God's wrath are the ones who suppress the truth in unrighteousness because that which may be known of God is manifest in them for God hath shewed it to them.

Rom 1 there isnt talking about the Elect, but the reprobate. They must give in account for their unrighteousness described in Rom 1

intentionally obtuse

Here is your claim, brightfame52:

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners

According to Romans 1:18-20, those who do not "believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" are the ones who suppress, restrain the truth in unrighteousness. These are the ones who "must give in account for their unrighteousness described in Rom 1":

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

newsflash, brightfame52, God has not hid the gospel. God has revealed the gospel from Genesis to Revelation.

News flash, the Gospel is hid to the Lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

intentionally obtuse.

It is clear from 2 Cor 4:4 that it is satan who hides the gospel. The gospel is not hid by God as you erroneously claim. Additionally, the gospel is not the mystery which was hid in God from the beginning of the world until He revealed the mystery to Paul. Those are truths you continue to suppress.

God is the one who first imprisons men in unbelief/disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded means:

so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape

God has concluded the Jews as well as gentiles under sin that he might have mercy upon all (God has mercy upon Jews as well as gentiles).

We see the same truth in Galatians 3:22:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


There is only one "escape" ... and that is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Gospel must be revealed, its not something embraced naturally.

Scripture reveals the gospel. God does not hide the gospel.

Your manipulation of Romans 1:16-17 will not change the meaning intended by the Author. Your manipulation of Scripture only keeps you in error.

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


vs 16 – the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe

vs 17 – it is the righteousness of God which is revealed

The Gospel and truths it contains is revealed to Faith

that may be what your erroneous dogma teaches, but that is not what the verse says, brightfame52.

The verse clearly states the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from "faith to faith. The just shall live by faith."

iow, we are to live by faith ... not works. Our walk with God is wholly lived by faith in Him.

Gospel message must be revealed by the Spirit that was given to us in new birth

oh yes, we must be born again in order to believe the gospel by which we are born again. Under your erroneous dogma, how many times must someone be born again before he/she is born again? Do you even read what you are saying before you click on submit???


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Everyone Christ died for is made righteous, from the OT times unto the present, and in the future.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Gods saints existed in the OT

Again, since the mystery had been hid from ages and from generations, but now ["now" not in OT times] ...

Your attempt to align Scripture with your erroneous dogma has failed again, brightfame52.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is not in alignment with Scripture, let go of the error and believe Scripture.

It is clear you prefer to let go of Scripture and hold to your error.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Isa 53:1-6

Who hath believed our report/Gospel? Aand to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

...

The Gospel of Christ, the Arm of the Lord must be revealed to be believed.

another example of you manipulating God's Word in order to align Scripture with your erroneous dogma.

Let's take a look at Isaiah 52:10 and see who has seen the arm of the Lord:

Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

God has not hid His salvation from anyone ... all nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Those who do not believe (i.e. those spoken of in Isaiah 53:1 shall not attain to salvation ... not because they did not see, but because they did not believe.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Christ preached the Only Gospel there is. It was still hid to the Lost when He preached it.

The Lord Jesus Christ preached the gospel.

The Lord Jesus Christ did not teach the mystery. If the Lord Jesus Christ taught the mystery, then the Author of Scripture lied (in Rom 16:25, 1 Cor 2:7, Eph 3, Col 1:26, etc., etc.) and if the Author of Scripture lied, the whole Word of God falls apart.

So, nope, it's your erroneous dogma which is not in alignment with Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Its a mystery and hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

The gospel is not hid by God. 2 Cor 4:4 tells us who hides the gospel and you preach on behalf of the one who hides the gospel.

the Mystery of the Gospel, its all the same.

nope ... the gospel is the gospel and the mystery is the mystery.


The gospel is revealed by God from Genesis to Revelation.

The mystery was hid in God from the beginning of the world.


Align your dogma to Scripture ... do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you don't preach 1 Cor 15:1-4 ... you preach another Jesus ... you preach another gospel.

I would conclude you are of those who dont understand 1 Cor 15:1-4

hahahahahaha!!!!

1 Corinthians 15:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You "elect" folks may find it difficult to understand that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that He was buried and that He rose again the third day.

yeah ... that's such a difficult truth to understand.

The only reason Scripture is difficult for you to understand is because you try to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma ... and that is not how we are to approach Scripture. We are to align our dogma to Scripture and where our dogma does not align with Scripture, let go of the error.

You prefer to hold to the error and let go of Scripture truth. That's why you think 1 Cor 15:1-4 must be "revealed" to you. Newsflash for you, brightfame52, when God had Paul write 1 Cor 15:1-4, that is God revealing the gospel. What is written in Scripture is God revealing truth to mankind. When you first read 1 Cor 15:1-4 or when another believer first told you the gospel, that is God revealing the gospel to you (it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe – 1 Cor 1:21). Question is ... do you believe???

The scriptures arent written to mankind in general, but to the saints of God, those set apart unto faith.

if that was true, there would be no need for any of the warnings God sets forth in His Word.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Only the regenerate have the ability given to them by God to read and understand the scriptures.

that's why you do not understand the difference between the gospel and the mystery ... God just hasn't revealed that truth to you.

oh, wait, yes, God has revealed it ... you just prefer to suppress the truth in unrighteousness in your efforts to preach another gospel.

People have abused Rom 10:9-10 to their destruction

The only one on this thread who has "abused Rom 10:9-10 to their destruction" is the one who insists a person must be "regenerated" (born again) in order to believe Scripture by which he/she is "converted" (born again).

hmmmm ... sounds like works to me and Scripture is clear that we are justified by faith (Rom 5:1). Scripture is also clear that faith is not works (Rom 4:5).

Again the unregenerate do not and cannot obey the Gospel.

Scripture instructs the unbeliever to believe the gospel.

Scripture also tells us that when the unbeliever who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, he/she is without excuse because God has revealed Himself to them and they reject God.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress; restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The us is the Elect, or the Church, not all mankind.

The word "elect [Greek eklektos]" does not appear in Titus 2:14.

The "us" is the all men referred to in Titus 2:11

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us [the all men of vs 11] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we [the all men of vs 11] should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us [the all men of vs 11], that he might redeem us [the all men of vs 11] from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



Titus 2:11 tells us the purpose of the grace of God that bringeth salvation is to teach all mankind the truths set forth in vss 11-14.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness will not benefit from the teaching.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

This passage verifies that Christ came only to redeem the seed of Abraham.

nope ... the truth written in Hebrews 2 is the same truth written in Philippians 2. The only difference is the audience to whom the letters are written. Hebrews is written to Jews and Philippians is written to gentiles.

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Philippians 2:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men


took on Him the seed of Abraham is the same as took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.


If you weren't so focused on forcing Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma, you would comprehend the wonderful truth the Author of Scripture laid out in both Hebrews 2 and Philippians 2.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the Gospel is hid

God has revealed the gospel in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. Holy men wrote what was revealed to them by the Author of Scripture.

The god of this world does not want the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ to be known so he works to hide the gospel ... and you do the work of the god of this world by continuously preaching that the gospel is hid.


2 Corinthians 4:

1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have always believed and testified to Justification by Faith.

you talk out of both sides of your mouth.

You have made it abundantly clear that if one is "elect", he/she does "not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" in your Post #1804:

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners

When I called you out on that lie in Post #1844:

You're saying that those who reject God are "absolutely acquitted/absolved : to free from guilt or claim or their consequences". Your erroneous dogma has you believing the lies of the devil.

Those who remain "ungodly sinners" the whole of their lifetime will find themselves facing the lake of fire.

You did not say I misunderstood what you claim ... you agreed that I not only understood what you said, but you agreed with your statement:

Yes

Yes, I have always believed in Justification by Faith, so what you are doing is slanderously misrepresenting me.

You preach a false gospel. You preach the gospel of the god of this world who hides the gospel lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto those who do not believe is "working" for God.

You preach that faith = works when Scripture clearly reveals faith ≠ works.

You preach that no one must believe it [the gospel], accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners.

Scripture never said the act of believing isnt a work

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

NIV: However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness


ESV: And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

Here's your favorite ... the Amplified: But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God)

ISV: However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you are the only one who claims faith "puts [me] under the law". I am so thankful to God that He does not do so:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You make faith, your human faith a requirement to do to get Justified/Saved,

There is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

No such thing as "human faith". Your "human faith" claim is a concept you made up to prop up your erroneous dogma.

hence you put yourself under the law.

nope ... you claiming I "put [my]self under the law" is another made up concept of your erroneous dogma.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

it has nothing to do with your human faith

you make faith a requirement

you promote justification by the flesh, your human faith

the natural mans faith out of his flesh.

Human faith is a law

your notion of "human faith" and "natural mans faith out of his flesh" and "faith is law" is just more of your vain imagining in your continued attempt to support your erroneous dogma.

Faith is faith ... there is only one faith with which mankind believes.

The issue is not "do you have faith".

The issue is "in WHOM do you have faith".

The atheist believes there is no God.

The pagan believes in many gods.

The born again one believes in God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ ... the Savior of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

Those who do not believe in God are without excuse because God has provided to all mankind all that is necessary to believe in Him.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The purpose of the law is to lead mankind to Messiah.

No it wasnt, it was given to lead Gods elect to Faith in the Jesus Christ. Paul is speaking about the seed of Abraham, he writes US, not all mankind.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The words "to bring us" are not part of the text. The words were added by the translators.

The point is that the keeping of the law was never intended as a means of salvation. Again, salvation is wholly by grace through faith.

The law was given to the children of Israel, the Jewish people. Paul, as apostle to the gentiles, was preaching the gospel in various cities. There were Jews who followed Paul and taught the gentile believers that they had to follow the law. Paul said in Gal 3:1-2:

Galatians 3:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul said this to them because they were turning from the true gospel of salvation by grace through faith to another gospel (see also Gal 1:6).

The point is that whoever is trying to keep the law in order to be justified, they are going to miss the boat because that was never the intent of the law.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.

Thats exactly what you doing, trying to keep a precept of the law in an attempt to gain salvation.

nope ... my shining the light of Scripture on your erroneous dogma does not equal me "trying to keep a precept of the law in an attempt to gain salvation".

Additionally, you now have the Lord Jesus Christ claiming that "faith is works", which completely contradicts what is written in Scripture. If there is any contradiction in Scripture, the whole Bible falls apart.

In Matt 23:23 Jesus plainly stated that faith, human faith, is part of the law that should be done.

Jesus said nothing concerning your false notion "human faith".

You have stated that men are justified by the faith that God gives every man

I've said it before and I will say it again, it is the OBJECT of faith Who justifies. God is the One Who justifies.

all natural human beings have been given faith, and that they must exercise it

close ... but not quite.

I believe that when God created, formed, made Adam, He gave Adam faith ... and all descendants of Adam have faith.

When a person does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, that faith is what allows mankind to believe God.

However, when a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, he/she believes a lie. The person chooses his/her own will or thoughts above the truth, resulting in the person relying on self rather than God.

I know this is a difficult concept for you, brightfame52. It's easier for you to believe that you're "elect" ... that God gave you something He didn't give to others and you were born again in order that you could believe the gospel by which you were born again.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1 Jn 5:1 it teaches that one is born of God before they believe

... another of your "born again in order to be born again" mantras.

Under your erroneous dogma, how many times must a person be born again before he/she is really born again???
.