By Works

[ForestGreenCook]

lots of people believe they're saved and others are not. not a big deal (i mean it's very common) just what people seem to believe naturally -- that they are the saved and people in other denominations, Christianities, belief systems, Religions, ect. aren't.

many kinds of Christians and many Christians seem unable to change their minds very often also, perhaps even unable to consider other's beliefs objectively very much.

I probably believe that there will be more in heaven than anyone on this forum, in fact most on this forum are included in the elect, or they would not be on this forum defending their beliefs.

 

[Jackson123]

They can, and will still commit sins after they are born again, but it will not keep them from inheriting eternal heaven, because Christ died to wash away the sins of those he died for.

Than you don't believe in Galatians 5

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Read full chapter

 

[Chester]

Sav
Saved, according to Greek interpretation means = delivered. When we are first born again, we are babes in Christ depending upon the milk of the word to feed us. as we grow in knowledge, we gradually grow into maturity and can feed upon the meat of the word. We are delivered from our lack of knowledge when we are mature enough to understand the righteousness of God, and are not going about trying to establish our own righteousness by our good works. Saved in this verse does not have reference to eternal deliverance, but a deliverance we can receive when we began to believe upon the righteousness of God. Believing is not the cause of our eternal deliverance, but is a product of already having been born of the Spirit in regeneration. The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) until he is born again, cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness.

A lot of good thoughts here and things I agree with, but also some things that I do not agree with - but we can learn from one another.

 

[Chester]

Practice sin is to continually walk in our fleshly nature. The born again person has a new heart that can be pricked and made to feel guilty. When a born again person yields to the temptation of sin, the Holy Spirit within him pricks his conscience and causes him to repent. Before he repents, he does not have fellowship with God, because God will not fellowship sin, but he still has not lost his eternal inheritance. When he repents, and God forgives him, he is back in good fellowship with God. This is the foundation of OSAS.

A good comparison of the stony heart and the heart of flesh is Acts where the Jews that Peter was preaching to that they crucified Jesus, were "pricked in their heart", signifying that they had the soft flesh heart of the regenerated persons, and said, "what must we do". Stephen was preaching the same message to those men that were "cut to the (stony) heart", and stoned Stephen to death.

The heart of the natural man (1 Cor 2:14) before he has been regenerated is a stony heart that has no spiritual conscience to be pricked.

Interesting - never heard an OSAS person say it the way you do . . .

but here is a problem - you seem to say that when a Christian sins that he is not forgiven until he "repents" - Am I understanding you right?

But if the Christian should die before he "repents" what would happen to that sin? Could he go to heaven, his "eternal inheritance" with an unforgiven sin? I think not . . . (my opinion) - so what you say confuses me??

That is why I believe the blood of Jesus is ongoingly moment by moment cleansing the believer from each and every sin (known or unknown). Surely the believer will confess and mourn over sin, but he does not need to come begging God for forgiveness. (my opinion - and I think I am right . . .

 

[Chester]

Believing can deliver (save) a person as they sojourn here in this world, but believing is not the cause of eternal deliverance, but is a product of already having been quickened to a spiritual life.

What you say is definitely valid, and I agree that to believe (have faith) is not possible unless God's grace begins doing a work in our hearts. But Scripture is also clear that justification (the new birth) does not come till one has faith (believes). Faith is not only a result or product of salvation (though it is that), but it is also part of the process of one coming to the new birth.

For by grace are ye saved through faith . . .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Interesting - never heard an OSAS person say it the way you do . . .

but here is a problem - you seem to say that when a Christian sins that he is not forgiven until he "repents" - Am I understanding you right?

But if the Christian should die before he "repents" what would happen to that sin? Could he go to heaven, his "eternal inheritance" with an unforgiven sin? I think not . . . (my opinion) - so what you say confuses me??

That is why I believe the blood of Jesus is ongoingly moment by moment cleansing the believer from each and every sin (known or unknown). Surely the believer will confess and mourn over sin, but he does not need to come begging God for forgiveness. (my opinion - and I think I am right . . .

I think what throughs our line of thinking to be unalike, is that I have a different interpretation on the salvation scriptures than you do. I believe that the Greek interpretation of "salvation", "saved", and "save" means= "a deliverance", "delivered", and "deliver". There is an eternal deliverance, and there are several deliverances that we receive as we sojourn here in this world.

Christ died to pay for the sins of those that his Father gave him. Once Christ had died and risen, there is no more payment for sins, and God looks upon those that Christ died for as holy and without blame. as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned. Once those have been born again, they still carry the baggage of their sinful nature with them until they die a natural death, and sometimes we are tempted to yield our bodies to sin. When we do, we lose our fellowship with God, because the scriptures say that God will not fellowship with sin. We do not lose our eternal inheritance, because Christ took care of that on the cross. When we repent, and God forgives us of that sin, we are delivered (saved) from the effects of the sin, and are back in good fellowship with God.

Because of the difference in these deliverances is what makes people tend to believe they have to take some kind of action to receive eternal deliverance, because they are reading the temporal salvations as if they were eternal deliverances.

 

[Chester]

I think what throughs our line of thinking to be unalike, is that I have a different interpretation on the salvation scriptures than you do. I believe that the Greek interpretation of "salvation", "saved", and "save" means= "a deliverance", "delivered", and "deliver". There is an eternal deliverance, and there are several deliverances that we receive as we sojourn here in this world.

Christ died to pay for the sins of those that his Father gave him. Once Christ had died and risen, there is no more payment for sins, and God looks upon those that Christ died for as holy and without blame. as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned. Once those have been born again, they still carry the baggage of their sinful nature with them until they die a natural death, and sometimes we are tempted to yield our bodies to sin. When we do, we lose our fellowship with God, because the scriptures say that God will not fellowship with sin. We do not lose our eternal inheritance, because Christ took care of that on the cross. When we repent, and God forgives us of that sin, we are delivered (saved) from the effects of the sin, and are back in good fellowship with God.

Because of the difference in these deliverances is what makes people tend to believe they have to take some kind of action to receive eternal deliverance, because they are reading the temporal salvations as if they were eternal deliverances.

Ah, in reality I agree that there is certainly a lot more to being "saved" than the initial experience. But our concept of the sinful nature and forgiveness are obviously different - that's OK - I will straighten out your theology in heaven . . . LOL!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ah, in reality I agree that there is certainly a lot more to being "saved" than the initial experience. But our concept of the sinful nature and forgiveness are obviously different - that's OK - I will straighten out your theology in heaven . . . LOL!

I like your attitude. running out of time, will comment more later.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What you say is definitely valid, and I agree that to believe (have faith) is not possible unless God's grace begins doing a work in our hearts. But Scripture is also clear that justification (the new birth) does not come till one has faith (believes). Faith is not only a result or product of salvation (though it is that), but it is also part of the process of one coming to the new birth.

For by grace are ye saved through faith . . .

You are a deep thinking person, and I enjoy discussing scriptures with you.

My belief on Eph 2:8 is that the faith mentioned is not our spiritual faith, because before we are quickened we do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. in which faith is a fruit of. I believe the faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is Jesus's faith. I think that it harmonizes with Gal 2:16 where it says that we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

I also believe that when we are first born again, that we are just babes in Christ and have to depend upon the milk of the word until we mature enough to digest the meat (doctrine) of the word. I believe that Isaiah 28:9-10 harmonizes with this thinking; Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

We start out with just a little faith, and after being taught and reading the scriptures more, we grow thereby.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What you say is definitely valid, and I agree that to believe (have faith) is not possible unless God's grace begins doing a work in our hearts. But Scripture is also clear that justification (the new birth) does not come till one has faith (believes). Faith is not only a result or product of salvation (though it is that), but it is also part of the process of one coming to the new birth.

For by grace are ye saved through faith . . .

God's grace can not begin to do a good work in our heart, until we have the new heart of flesh that comes as we are quickened, and the old heart of stone is taken out Ezk 11:19.

 

[Chester]

You are a deep thinking person, and I enjoy discussing scriptures with you.

My belief on Eph 2:8 is that the faith mentioned is not our spiritual faith, because before we are quickened we do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. in which faith is a fruit of. I believe the faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is Jesus's faith. I think that it harmonizes with Gal 2:16 where it says that we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

I also believe that when we are first born again, that we are just babes in Christ and have to depend upon the milk of the word until we mature enough to digest the meat (doctrine) of the word. I believe that Isaiah 28:9-10 harmonizes with this thinking; Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

We start out with just a little faith, and after being taught and reading the scriptures more, we grow thereby.

The trouble with your point is that you begin with a doctrinal belief that says that someone who is not born again can do absolutely nothing to respond to God or to understand spiritual things. And there are Scriptures that talk about the natural man not understanding the things of God.

But then with that doctrinal belief you are forced to interpret other Scriptures to fit this doctrinal mold. So when Paul writes "saved by grace through faith" your doctrine does not allow the "faith" to be the faith of the unbeliever getting saved. Well, I do not interpret Scripture that way.

Galatians 2:16 says "ek pisteos Christou" in which case Christou is genitive case. And there are different kinds of genitive case meanings in Greek, and it is grammatically possible to interpret as either faith in Christ, or faith of Christ. I think the context in Galations makes it abundantly clear this is faith in Christ. but again your prior theology means you must interpret that it is faith of Christ. And then you take that verse and move it into a completely different context and book to "prove" that Paul in Ephesians 2:8 meant the faith of Christ and not our own faith.

If you would just drop your prior theological bias, you would find a much deeper and richer meaning in these texts.

Of course there is abundant truth to your idea that a young Christian needs milk and only later can go to meat. There is a lot to learn from these texts.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The trouble with your point is that you begin with a doctrinal belief that says that someone who is not born again can do absolutely nothing to respond to God or to understand spiritual things. And there are Scriptures that talk about the natural man not understanding the things of God.

But then with that doctrinal belief you are forced to interpret other Scriptures to fit this doctrinal mold. So when Paul writes "saved by grace through faith" your doctrine does not allow the "faith" to be the faith of the unbeliever getting saved. Well, I do not interpret Scripture that way.

Galatians 2:16 says "ek pisteos Christou" in which case Christou is genitive case. And there are different kinds of genitive case meanings in Greek, and it is grammatically possible to interpret as either faith in Christ, or faith of Christ. I think the context in Galations makes it abundantly clear this is faith in Christ. but again your prior theology means you must interpret that it is faith of Christ. And then you take that verse and move it into a completely different context and book to "prove" that Paul in Ephesians 2:8 meant the faith of Christ and not our own faith.

If you would just drop your prior theological bias, you would find a much deeper and richer meaning in these texts.

Of course there is abundant truth to your idea that a young Christian needs milk and only later can go to meat. There is a lot to learn from these texts.

Can you give me some insight on Eph 2:1? I am understanding it to mean; The natural man, who only has faith of man, 1 cor 2:11, and not spiritual faith, because spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:1, And you hath he quickened who were (spiritually) dead in transpasses and sins. Did he, perchance, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before he was quickened, which caused him to have spiritual faith before he was quickened?

Does the natural man, before he has been regenerated, have the ability to have faith in a spiritual God that he cannot discern?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The trouble with your point is that you begin with a doctrinal belief that says that someone who is not born again can do absolutely nothing to respond to God or to understand spiritual things. And there are Scriptures that talk about the natural man not understanding the things of God.

But then with that doctrinal belief you are forced to interpret other Scriptures to fit this doctrinal mold. So when Paul writes "saved by grace through faith" your doctrine does not allow the "faith" to be the faith of the unbeliever getting saved. Well, I do not interpret Scripture that way.

Galatians 2:16 says "ek pisteos Christou" in which case Christou is genitive case. And there are different kinds of genitive case meanings in Greek, and it is grammatically possible to interpret as either faith in Christ, or faith of Christ. I think the context in Galations makes it abundantly clear this is faith in Christ. but again your prior theology means you must interpret that it is faith of Christ. And then you take that verse and move it into a completely different context and book to "prove" that Paul in Ephesians 2:8 meant the faith of Christ and not our own faith.

If you would just drop your prior theological bias, you would find a much deeper and richer meaning in these texts.

Of course there is abundant truth to your idea that a young Christian needs milk and only later can go to meat. There is a lot to learn from these texts.

If possible, can you give me some scriptures that explain how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can understand spiritual things and respond to a spiritual God?

 

[Chester]

If possible, can you give me some scriptures that explain how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can understand spiritual things and respond to a spiritual God?

LOL! It is all through Scripture - and we just dealt with one - Ephesians 2:8 - "for by grace are you saved through faith"

Paul told the Philippian jailor to "believe"

Saying a person needs to believe in Jesus in order to be saved does not negate or contradict what I Cor. 2:14 says about the natural man. (Unless of course you form a doctrinal belief and then use it to interpret other verses)

 

[Chester]

Can you give me some insight on Eph 2:1? I am understanding it to mean; The natural man, who only has faith of man, 1 cor 2:11, and not spiritual faith, because spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:1, And you hath he quickened who were (spiritually) dead in transpasses and sins. Did he, perchance, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before he was quickened, which caused him to have spiritual faith before he was quickened?

Does the natural man, before he has been regenerated, have the ability to have faith in a spiritual God that he cannot discern?

There you go again: trying to interpret Ephesians 2:1 in light of I Cor 2:11.

Eph 2:1 just says we (Paul's readers actually) were dead (separated from God) in our sins - sounds to me like these people were lost and needed salvation! The verse doesn't answer all the questions you are asking . . .

 

[Chester]

When God becomes present in a person's life, He begins to do a mighty work that will show and manifest in the works of that person. Paul says in Eph. 2:10 = we are his workmanship. James says in 2:18: "shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”