What Changed?
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Yes, BEFORE Adam sinned, he and and Eve were "very good". After sin...not so much. Evil had entered Adam and Eve's heart and ruined them and all their progeny.
There is no overlap between deity and the clay he created. To be created in God's image simply means that like God, we are personal, rational, moral beings. And such beings can either be Good (as God alone is) or Evil (as all Adam's progeny is).
There is no overlap between deity and the clay he created. To be created in God's image simply means that like God, we are personal, rational, moral beings. And such beings can either be Good (as God alone is) or Evil (as all Adam's progeny is).
You are merely asserting your opinion. You are providing no biblical proof for your assertions. Nothing in scripture actually says what you are asserting. You have to add your unsubstantiated theological assumptions into texts to get them to appear to conform to your opinions. You are free to do that, but you remain unpersuasive to people who know how to think critically.
I see you are now resorting to the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy.
A false dichotomy is presenting two choices when more than two choices exist. The false dichotomy frames a choice like a true dichotomy, but in reality you can choose “none of the above.” A false dichotomy can lead to valid arguments, but not sound arguments. This makes their use a logical fallacy.
A false dichotomy is presenting two choices when more than two choices exist. The false dichotomy frames a choice like a true dichotomy, but in reality you can choose “none of the above.” A false dichotomy can lead to valid arguments, but not sound arguments. This makes their use a logical fallacy.
False! I'm asserting biblical fact. For example, BEFORE sin entered the world the entire creation was characterized as "very good". Now...you show me in the bible where AFTER sin entered, the entire creation was still characterized as very good.
Or show me where Jesus in the Gospels ever characterized his contemporaries as being good.
Or show me where Jesus in the Gospels ever characterized his contemporaries as being good.
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Once sin does gain entry into a persons body, it is extremely deceitful and seductive and spreads like a cancer, unless the person calls upon God and sets his/her mind on things of the spirit by disciplined choice.
You seem to consider yourself to have it all figured out. But your "figuring out" comes from reading Manichaeanism and Platonism into the Bible via Augustine and Calvin, whereas I try to achieve mine by letting texts as written speak for themselves.
You seem to consider yourself to have it all figured out. But your "figuring out" comes from reading Manichaeanism and Platonism into the Bible via Augustine and Calvin, whereas I try to achieve mine by letting texts as written speak for themselves.
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Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
I have not argued that after sin entered the entire creatioj was still very good. I have argued that something not being good does not mean there is nothing good in the not good thing. The world after sin still has good in it, even though it became imperfect and not good.
Proverbs: There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
No child in the womb has done any of these seven things. No infant has done any of these.
Mark 10:13-16 ESV
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
Mark 9:42 ESV “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
Matthew 18:10 ESV
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 12:35
We are told to add to our faith goodness. 2 Pet. 1. That would be impossible if your total depravity idea were a real thing.
I have not argued that after sin entered the entire creatioj was still very good. I have argued that something not being good does not mean there is nothing good in the not good thing. The world after sin still has good in it, even though it became imperfect and not good.
Proverbs: There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
No child in the womb has done any of these seven things. No infant has done any of these.
Mark 10:13-16 ESV
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
Mark 9:42 ESV “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
Matthew 18:10 ESV
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 12:35
“A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.”
So there must be some men God considers good, even though they be only relatively good. We are told to add to our faith goodness. 2 Pet. 1. That would be impossible if your total depravity idea were a real thing.
But there aren't any other biblical options between Good AND Evil, Bad or Wicked. Jesus certainly didn't think so. He explicitly called men evil and also said only God alone is Good, implying that all men are evil. No man measures up to God's standard of Good; therefore, the absence in man of of this standard makes him evil.
But the exceedingly and desperately wicked hearts of men won't allow them to seek after God. Man loves himself and the things of this world too much to seek after the God he hates, and the spiritual knowledge and wisdom that the wicked also despises.
Furthermore, you just made a tremendous admission that sin in a person's "body" (or better yet HEART, since this is from whence all sin proceeds), that it is extremely deceitful. You just unwittingly admitted that the entire human race is extremely self-deceived, which is precisely what Jeremiah tells us. So...since all people are liars, hypocrites, etc. then how can anyone know or even want to know the truth about themselves? Don't you know that such people even hate the TRUTH!? When someone believes they are "A" when they're really "B", there's no way you can convince that person otherwise. A person is who he thinks he is.
Because all men are utterly self-deceived, being DARKNESS itself, God must rescue them because they are totally helpless to see themselves the way their Creator sees them.
Someone here just wrote earlier today (EverlastingGrace?) that God never "forces" anyone to come to him through Christ! Even that isn't true! If God didn't show mercy and compassion to help the helplessly self-deceived, not one person on this planet would be saved! Every day in this world God rescues those who never thought they needed rescuing; for they have this false sense of security in trusting in all the wrong things in this life. BUT...once God opens their eyes and they begin to see themselves as God sees them and also see God as he represents himself in scripture, then their world begins to change. But it takes that new heart. New Spirit. New Power. The Fear of the Lord literally instilled into them. A love for his Law, etc, etc. Everything starts to change for them because God is literally recreating them spiritually. God literally rescues them from the kingdom of darkness and brings them into his kingdom of Light. After all...that's what he did with Israel in terms of their physical redemption -- took the ancient Hebrews out of Pharaoh's kingdom and darkness and bondage and led them into the Promised Land.
Furthermore, you just made a tremendous admission that sin in a person's "body" (or better yet HEART, since this is from whence all sin proceeds), that it is extremely deceitful. You just unwittingly admitted that the entire human race is extremely self-deceived, which is precisely what Jeremiah tells us. So...since all people are liars, hypocrites, etc. then how can anyone know or even want to know the truth about themselves? Don't you know that such people even hate the TRUTH!? When someone believes they are "A" when they're really "B", there's no way you can convince that person otherwise. A person is who he thinks he is.
Because all men are utterly self-deceived, being DARKNESS itself, God must rescue them because they are totally helpless to see themselves the way their Creator sees them.
Someone here just wrote earlier today (EverlastingGrace?) that God never "forces" anyone to come to him through Christ! Even that isn't true! If God didn't show mercy and compassion to help the helplessly self-deceived, not one person on this planet would be saved! Every day in this world God rescues those who never thought they needed rescuing; for they have this false sense of security in trusting in all the wrong things in this life. BUT...once God opens their eyes and they begin to see themselves as God sees them and also see God as he represents himself in scripture, then their world begins to change. But it takes that new heart. New Spirit. New Power. The Fear of the Lord literally instilled into them. A love for his Law, etc, etc. Everything starts to change for them because God is literally recreating them spiritually. God literally rescues them from the kingdom of darkness and brings them into his kingdom of Light. After all...that's what he did with Israel in terms of their physical redemption -- took the ancient Hebrews out of Pharaoh's kingdom and darkness and bondage and led them into the Promised Land.
Sorry for the delay in answering. My original post was simply to find out if you believed there was something that changed fundamentally in man as a result of sin. You seemed to be saying that there was a change physically in man, but no change to the immaterial aspects of man. Did I understand this correctly?
You just classified yourself as self-deceived. You think God has given you eyes to see the truth, but your heart is deceitfully wicked and self-deceived and tells you that God has empowered you to know what most others cannot know. But by your own rheology, no one should trust you, nor should you trust yourself. It is plain to me that you cannot read scripture and understand what it is saying, but are adding ideas into scripture that are not there. And yet you claim, contrary to the evidence, that you are reading it correctly. You even confess that you could be merely self-deceived: falsely convinced that you are seeing straight. You display that you are guilty of the disease you are ascribing to others because what you are convinced you are seeing in scripture is so clearly NOT there..
My heart is "deceitfully wicked and self-deceived" because God miraculously saved me and gave me ears to hear, and eyes to see and new heart with which I'm able to believe the Gospel? I'm the wicked one for believing that salvation is 100% of God's power (effectual grace) that brought me and brings all men to His Son to be saved? But you're the enlightened one who believes the New Covenant is bilateral and men must willingly entire into the covenant relationship with God so that he can save them? Salvation is a partnership relationship. Man does his part, God fulfills his end of the bargain?
If I were you, I'd be very concerned about your spiritual state because the majority of professing Christians have the same carnal, worldly view of the Gospel and the New Covenant that you do. It's in fallen man's DNA to believe that he contributes something toward his own salvation so that he can boast in something other or in something that's in addition to the Cross of Christ. Fallen mankind has this wicked proclivity in his heart to believe that he did something to help God part the "Red Sea" so that he could escape from the jaws of certain, eternal death and pass over to life. The evil heart of the Natural Man cannot bear the thought that God deserves and, indeed, demands 100% of the glory for salvation. They want to be like their spiritual father and get piece of God's glory.
If I were you, I'd be very concerned about your spiritual state because the majority of professing Christians have the same carnal, worldly view of the Gospel and the New Covenant that you do. It's in fallen man's DNA to believe that he contributes something toward his own salvation so that he can boast in something other or in something that's in addition to the Cross of Christ. Fallen mankind has this wicked proclivity in his heart to believe that he did something to help God part the "Red Sea" so that he could escape from the jaws of certain, eternal death and pass over to life. The evil heart of the Natural Man cannot bear the thought that God deserves and, indeed, demands 100% of the glory for salvation. They want to be like their spiritual father and get piece of God's glory.