What Changed?

[PaulThomson]

Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone."

Amen.

 

[Cameron143]

I would point you to my post to Rufus #55, to see what I think we mean when we say "No one is good, except God". I would say that the same principle applies to Paul's comment here.

Romans 7: 18 oida gar (For I perceive) hoti (that) ouk oikei (is not dwelling) en emoi (in me) tout'estin (that which is) en tEi sarki (in the flesh) mou (of me) agathon (a good thing).
to gar thelein (for to will/desire) parakeitai (is present) moi (in me) to de katergazesthai (to perform) to kalon (the good thing) ouch euriskO (I am not finding).

Firstly, Paul is describing his own experience, and we cannot ascribe this same perception as true to every person, including every Christian, or every child in the womb, or every infant who has no understanding of good and evil.

Secondly, asserting that there is no good thing, is not necessarily asserting that there is nothing good. That is, his instincts may be warped by sin having invaded his person, but there may be positive/good aspect of his instincts nevertheless. I am not denying Pan-aspectual Imperfection of unbelievers after their eventual infection with sin. I am, however, rejecting the concepts of Total Depravity and Original Sin as being unbiblical.

Christians have been given a newed perfect purified spirit upon justification through faith. So there is one aspect of those humans that is not depraved or defiled.
Until children knowingly choose sin sin is crouching at their door, sleeping/dead, but when moral law comes to the child, and the world and the devil deceive the child into sin, sin wakes up/revives and becomes an inner force the child must contend with.

The unsaved have a spirit that is not good, in the sense of aspectually imperfect, but not totally depraved, with no good working parts. An unsaved sinner can set their mind on spiritual things and God will assist them if they do, so that they can direct their body to follow a morally good path at times. But this is intermittent due to the severe handicap of having sin in the flesh. "No one keeps on doing good, no not one." No aspect of man's divine image is totally depraved and without some good functional parts. Even those who are evil can give some good gifts to their children.

The flesh is juxtaposed with the spiritual. Before salvation, an individual's motivation is always for self. Even if a gift is given, and the gift itself is good, the motivation behind gift is for the benefit of the giver. The gift itself is good because it's source is God. But the motivations of the giver operating in the flesh, is always love of self. The flesh cannot operate otherwise. Thus, a gift can be good because all things are created by God and were made good and very good, but the reason it is given, because it is motivated by a selfishness and not the love of God or others, is not good. This is how people can give good gifts.. knowing good from evil, and still displease God. Abel understood this. Cain did not. One acted out of a love for God. The other out of a love of self.

 

[PaulThomson]

The flesh is juxtaposed with the spiritual. Before salvation, an individual's motivation is always for self. Even if a gift is given, and the gift itself is good, the motivation behind gift is for the benefit of the giver. The gift itself is good because it's source is God. But the motivations of the giver operating in the flesh, is always love of self. The flesh cannot operate otherwise. Thus, a gift can be good because all things are created by God and were made good and very good, but the reason it is given, because it is motivated by a selfishness and not the love of God or others, is not good. This is how people can give good gifts.. knowing good from evil, and still displease God. Abel understood this. Cain did not. One acted out of a love for God. The other out of a love of self.

You gave absolutely no scripture to support your theory that "Before salvation, an individual's motivation is always for self." And that "Even if a gift is given, and the gift itself is good, the motivation behind gift is for the benefit of the giver."

 

[Cameron143]

You gave absolutely no scripture to support your theory that "Before salvation, an individual's motivation is always for self." And that "Even if a gift is given, and the gift itself is good, the motivation behind gift is for the benefit of the giver."

The unregenerate man can only walk according to the flesh. He is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He cannot walk according to the Spirit. He is without God and without hope in this world.

 

[PaulThomson]

The unregenerate man can only walk according to the flesh. He is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He cannot walk according to the Spirit. He is without God and without hope in this world.

The original text had only capitals, so we don't know whether spirit should be capitalised to refer to the Holy Spirit or miniscule to refer to the man's own spirit. Undoubtedly, the unsaved unregenerate have spirits, souls (minds) and bodies (flesh). It is possible for an unregenerate man to focus his mind on what he is perceiving via his spirit (spiritually-minded, mind set on the spirit) or he can focus his mind on what he is perceiving through his physical faculties (mind set on the flesh). There is no reason to suppose that God is umnable to get anything through to the unregenerate spirit. Total Depravity is jot a real thing. Even Calvinists concede that by "total depravity" they do not mean total depravity.

So your claim that "The unregenerate man can only walk according to the flesh" is moot. Can you actually prove it from scripture?

 

[Cameron143]

The original text had only capitals, so we don't know whether spirit should be capitalised to refer to the Holy Spirit or miniscule to refer to the man's own spirit. Undoubtedly, the unsaved unregenerate have spirits, souls (minds) and bodies (flesh). It is possible for an unregenerate man to focus his mind on what he is perceiving via his spirit (spiritually-minded, mind set on the spirit) or he can focus his mind on what he is perceiving through his physical faculties (mind set on the flesh). There is no reason to suppose that God is umnable to get anything through to the unregenerate spirit. Total Depravity is jot a real thing. Even Calvinists concede that by "total depravity" they do not mean total depravity.

So your claim that "The unregenerate man can only walk according to the flesh" is moot. Can you actually prove it from scripture?

I was hoping to have an honest conversation about what you and I believe, not what others believe. If that's possible, I'll answer. If not, no reason to continue.

 

[PaulThomson]

I was hoping to have an honest conversation about what you and I believe, not what others believe. If that's possible, I'll answer. If not, no reason to continue.

OK. I will refrain from referring to what anyone except you and I believe. Fire away.

 

[Cameron143]

OK. I will refrain from referring to what anyone except you and I believe. Fire away.

Do you believe that the natural man has been corrupted in any way as a result of Adam's sin? If so, what is the extent of the corruption to his mind, heart, and will?

Perhaps it is better to consider 1 at a time.

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you believe that the natural man has been corrupted in any way as a result of Adam's sin? If so, what is the extent of the corruption to his mind, heart, and will?

Perhaps it is better to consider 1 at a time.

I will need you to clarify which text/s are you drawing the term "natural man" from? and what you think that/those text/s mean/s by the term "the natural man"?

 

[BillyBob]

It seems to me that the main difference between reformed and non-reformed is:

The non-reformed person gives glory to creation.
The reformed person gives glory to the creator.

Opps, I forgot - man only comes into the world as a bruised apple! I keep forgetting this because I haven't yet seen it presented in scripture. But I'm still looking!

God will not be robed of His glory!

 

[Eli1]

It seems to me that the main difference between reformed and non-reformed is:

The non-reformed person gives glory to creation.
The reformed person gives glory to the creator.

Opps, I forgot - man only comes into the world as a bruised apple! I keep forgetting this because I haven't yet seen it presented in scripture. But I'm still looking!

God will not be robed of His glory!

Good observation Bill. In general that is very true and in fact i'll do you one better.

The reformed is bound by Sola Scriptura first whereas the non-reformed isn't.

 

[Rufus]

I have heard it said that "Ps 51:5 is teaching that David (and, therefore, the rest of mankind) came into this world with a sinful nature? Man cannot not sin because we ARE (inherently, intrinsically EVIL). Didn't Jesus teach us that all men are evil!? He said "no man is good"! Only God alone is good!

According to you. But not according to the original text of scripture; nor according to the on its face meaning of the English translation of the text, of which you are blissfully and crassly ignorant. Because it has been explained simply to you several times now and you still won't acknowledge the facts.

This has been explained to you at least three times. But you have been too blinded by your ideology to reason through the explanations. Allyou do is hand wave and reassert your ideology.

If I have a box of apples to sell all of which are bruised and marred except the one royal gala apple, and I tell you they are all good apples, you could say, " None of them is good, except one, the royal gala."

This does NOT mean that none of them are any good. There may be good parts to each of the apples, but each apple as a whole is not good, except the royal gala. The apples are not TOTALLY DEPRAVED. I could make a good apple pie from the good parts of the apples.

Try doing some actually thinking, friend.

And I keep explaining to you that your analogy fails because you're comparing the gala apple with other apples -- with all apples being mankind. The only way your analogy could work is if God himself is also an apple. So...this is what you believe then...that God is just another apple in his created gala bunch of mankind? Your analogy needs to account for where God fits in. After all, Jesus clearly contrasted mankind ("no one") with God. "Why do you call me good? NO ONE (no man -- no human "APPLE") is good . Only God alone is good. Jesus clearly didn't teach that mankind isn't as good as God -- which would be a relative statement. Jesus's statement is absolute! For no one at all is good, save for God alone! No man can hold a candle to God's infinite goodness!

And when Jesus often referred to his contemporaries as "this evil generation", how does that square with your ill-conceived analogy? Was Jesus teaching that not everyone is equally as evil?

Try taking your own medicine, Mr. Wanna-Be-Physician: Heal yourself by actually thinking for yourself by shoving aside your unbiblical presuppositions.

 

[Rufus]

A newborn doesn't have the law. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore every sinner who dies before they have the law goes to heaven - no exceptions, no "sovereign choosing" of one over another.
The newborn is personally innocent of Adam's specific transgression, but physically dies because he's Adam's seed - a sinner.

You misunderstand that text. Where in the bible does it teach that all all men are saved prior to the giving of the Law? God saved Eve after she sinned since he reconciled her to himself, but He certainly bypassed Adam since he is the seed of the Serpent.

 

[Rufus]

I noticed that the reader of the Strong's Greek for agathos is directed to compare it to kalos and vis versa, each being translated into English as "good" but agathos, which is found in Mark 10:18 is "properly intrinsic" and kalos is, " properly, beautiful, but chiefly (figuratively) good (literally or morally), i.e. Valuable or virtuous (for appearance or use, and thus distinguished from agathos, which is properly intrinsic) -- X better, fair, good(-ly), honest, meet, well, worthy.
So, there does seem to be some measure of an otherwise unrecognized nuance in the general (English) definition of 'good.'

Oh...so that's why all my 20+ translations translate the term "agathos" as "good" in Mk 10:18? All those teams of language experts missed that nuance, heh?

 

[Rufus]

I would point you to my post to Rufus #55, to see what I think we mean when we say "No one is good, except God". I would say that the same principle applies to Paul's comment here.

Romans 7: 18 oida gar (For I perceive) hoti (that) ouk oikei (is not dwelling) en emoi (in me) tout'estin (that which is) en tEi sarki (in the flesh) mou (of me) agathon (a good thing).
to gar thelein (for to will/desire) parakeitai (is present) moi (in me) to de katergazesthai (to perform) to kalon (the good thing) ouch euriskO (I am not finding).

Firstly, Paul is describing his own experience, and we cannot ascribe this same perception as true to every person, including every Christian, or every child in the womb, or every infant who has no understanding of good and evil.

Secondly, asserting that there is no good thing, is not necessarily asserting that there is nothing good. That is, his instincts may be warped by sin having invaded his person, but there may be positive/good aspect of his instincts nevertheless. I am not denying Pan-aspectual Imperfection of unbelievers after their eventual infection with sin. I am, however, rejecting the concepts of Total Depravity and Original Sin as being unbiblical.

Christians have been given a newed perfect purified spirit upon justification through faith. So there is one aspect of those humans that is not depraved or defiled.
Until children knowingly choose sin sin is crouching at their door, sleeping/dead, but when moral law comes to the child, and the world and the devil deceive the child into sin, sin wakes up/revives and becomes an inner force the child must contend with.

The unsaved have a spirit that is not good, in the sense of aspectually imperfect, but not totally depraved, with no good working parts. An unsaved sinner can set their mind on spiritual things and God will assist them if they do, so that they can direct their body to follow a morally good path at times. But this is intermittent due to the severe handicap of having sin in the flesh. "No one keeps on doing good, no not one." No aspect of man's divine image is totally depraved and without some good functional parts. Even those who are evil can give some good gifts to their children.

Totally wrong. Only if Paul wasn't a human being could that be said. What he said for himself applies to all men! And it harmonizes with the rest of the bible. Who born of woman can be clean (Job 14:1-4)? There is absolutely no moral-spiritual soundness in man (Isa 1:5-6).

 

[JohnRH]

Where in the bible does it teach that all all men are saved prior to the giving of the Law?

I never said that.

 

[Rufus]

I would point you to my post to Rufus #55, to see what I think we mean when we say "No one is good, except God". I would say that the same principle applies to Paul's comment here.

Romans 7: 18 oida gar (For I perceive) hoti (that) ouk oikei (is not dwelling) en emoi (in me) tout'estin (that which is) en tEi sarki (in the flesh) mou (of me) agathon (a good thing).
to gar thelein (for to will/desire) parakeitai (is present) moi (in me) to de katergazesthai (to perform) to kalon (the good thing) ouch euriskO (I am not finding).

Firstly, Paul is describing his own experience, and we cannot ascribe this same perception as true to every person, including every Christian, or every child in the womb, or every infant who has no understanding of good and evil.

Secondly, asserting that there is no good thing, is not necessarily asserting that there is nothing good. That is, his instincts may be warped by sin having invaded his person, but there may be positive/good aspect of his instincts nevertheless. I am not denying Pan-aspectual Imperfection of unbelievers after their eventual infection with sin. I am, however, rejecting the concepts of Total Depravity and Original Sin as being unbiblical.

Christians have been given a newed perfect purified spirit upon justification through faith. So there is one aspect of those humans that is not depraved or defiled.
Until children knowingly choose sin sin is crouching at their door, sleeping/dead, but when moral law comes to the child, and the world and the devil deceive the child into sin, sin wakes up/revives and becomes an inner force the child must contend with.

The unsaved have a spirit that is not good, in the sense of aspectually imperfect, but not totally depraved, with no good working parts. An unsaved sinner can set their mind on spiritual things and God will assist them if they do, so that they can direct their body to follow a morally good path at times. But this is intermittent due to the severe handicap of having sin in the flesh. "No one keeps on doing good, no not one." No aspect of man's divine image is totally depraved and without some good functional parts. Even those who are evil can give some good gifts to their children.

This last paragraph is patently false. The Unregenerate naturally hate God, hate his Son, despise spiritual knowledge, hate spiritual wisdom, hate truth, love the darkness, love themselves, love the world, love pleasures of this life, love money, etc. Pure wishful thinking on your part. No one does good, no not one! And the reason for this is easy to understand: The unregenerate live in sin 24/7, therefore, whatever "good" we may think they do is still corrupted by their hatred for God and mistrust of him, which further means they do nothing for God's glory!

 

[Rufus]

I never said that.

But you did say:

A newborn doesn't have the law. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore every sinner who dies before they have the law goes to heaven - no exceptions, no "sovereign choosing" of one over another.
The newborn is personally innocent of Adam's specific transgression, but physically dies because he's Adam's seed - a sinner.

So...the written code of the law wasn't given until Sinai where Moses received it. This logically means all men who lived prior to Sinai are now in heaven since they were not imputed Adam's sin.

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you believe that the natural man has been corrupted in any way as a result of Adam's sin? If so, what is the extent of the corruption to his mind, heart, and will?

Perhaps it is better to consider 1 at a time.

Are you are referring only to 1 Cor. 2:14?

Psuchikos probably means air-breathing. Pneumatikos probably means spirit-breathing.

All air-breathing people became subject to physical disease and physical death as a result of Adam's sin. No person's mind, heart and will are affected by Adam's sin, but each person's mind, heart and will become corrupted through their own fear of death and their own failure to trust God.

Hebrews 2:15 KJV — And deliver them who in fear of death, through all of the [struggle?] to live, were subject to bondage.
Genesis 4:7 KJV — If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Heb. 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11¶Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[Cameron143]

Are you are referring only to 1 Cor. 2:14?

Psuchikos probably means air-breathing. Pneumatikos probably means spirit-breathing.

All air-breathing people became subject to physical disease and physical death as a result of Adam's sin. No person's mind, heart and will are affected by Adam's sin, but each person's mind, heart and will become corrupted through their own fear of death and their own failure to trust God.

Hebrews 2:15 KJV — And deliver them who in fear of death, through all of the [struggle?] to live, were subject to bondage.
Genesis 4:7 KJV — If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Heb. 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11¶Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is alot here but I don't have the ability at present to address this in the manner worthy of the effort you have made. I'll try to address this later.